Hacking Your Way into a Security Career with Nathali Cano

Welcome to the Security Cocktail Hour. I'm Joe Patti.

I'm Adam Roth. Yes, you're Adam Roth.

How are you doing today, Adam?

Well, I had an identity issue for a second, so you know how it goes in cybersecurity. Sometimes you are who you are and sometimes you're not.

That is really deep. You know, identity management is one of the trickiest parts of security, but knowing who you are, that's a little too metaphysical and I think we need to get into right here.

We could do a whole podcast on that one day.

Okay. Well, I know someone who is definitely not Adam Roth. We have a guest today. Natalie Cano. Hi, Natalie. How are you?

Hi, guys. I'm doing great. How are you?

Okay. Glad we were able to connect. This recording was actually delayed for a bit. I think it's for four or five years now?

Oh, come on, Adam. It's not that bad.

Four or five weeks?

Yes, more like it, yes. Okay. I had good reasons.

No, you did, you did. Well, we're glad you're okay. And you know, and it just goes to show the audience, if you decide to go on this show, we're not, we're not giving up. We're going to keep hounding you until you're finally.

Well, Natalie, I'll tell you, we had an attorney once, an attorney said, it's not stalking if you're not successful. So, you know, we did have an attorney talking about, I was, I've been stalking a certain actor, trying to get him on the show. And I have not given up yet.

Wow, okay, you're admitting it.

Yeah, we're on the record unfortunately. In any case, so we are here and today, well, we got a diversity of beverages here today. I've got a margarita that I thought was the show beverage. What do you, oh, you.

Oh, come on, you were supposed to have a margarita too. I was the only one that was, again, I have another excuse. This is a margarita glass with chocolate milk.

The chocolate milk, that is, that's actually a very nice glass.

Thank you. Let me show it again. Let's appreciate this.

I used to love chocolate milk when I was a kid. Oh, I still do.

Honestly, I never...

So let's go back to the chocolate egg cream again. That's right. We could do a chocolate egg cream.

Get a very New York... We're going to have to do an after party, Joe, about how to make a good chocolate egg cream. So an after party on...

This is becoming a thing now. Adam is taking it very seriously.

I take my egg cream seriously. I take everything seriously.

fascinating, I think.

Thank you.

And unique. And I have met a lot of people in security over the years and I don't think I've met anyone with a background like yours. It's really interesting.

Let me be self-centered, Joe. Her story is more interesting than mine.

You know, her story about how she got into security is more interesting, Adam. You have many other stories that range from interesting to I don't know what to make of this. Scary? Yeah. Does that make you feel better?

Well, let's focus on Natalie. I'm sorry.

Okay. But Natalie, please tell us a little bit about yourself in particular. Let's talk about how you did get into security and your background, because it is really interesting.

Okay. I think I have to go back to the struggle before, like what led me to get into cybersecurity. So the story kind of is cohesive. Um, so some of you already know, um, I have, I'm the mother of this wonderful child that I love. She's 11. Well, she's actually 12 now. And I was a single mom. I mean, the dad was around, but unfortunately he was just not very present, which made things very difficult for me. Long story short, I always like to say, when people say, okay, Natalie, what do you do? I'm a social worker that happens to be a cybersecurity engineer, but I never left social work. And so at the time I was in social work, I was making very little money. Um, so a, I had just a terrible situation happen that it really made me realize. I said, I need, I need to change. I need a, like a real change. I was going through a very difficult situation in my life. Probably like, I don't know if someone can relate, but one of those, like the lowest point in when you're there, you know, there's so much going on in your mind. And one of those things is like, I, I knew I didn't want to experience what I was experiencing again. And I just reached out to this friend who I knew was in a way, in a way, better connected than I was. And he said, Natalie, how about if you try to get into recruiting? So then he introduced me to this other gentleman and this person pretty much said, Natalie, you have to pay me $10,000 and I'm going to teach you the ins and outs of recruiting. I said, well, I barely have money for, to pay my rent. So that's not happening anyway. So we, we, we worked the deal pretty much. You start paying me once you get a job. So he was very, that, that's how convincing he was of his, of his problem. But anyway, at the time I had already, I had already had some experience in HR, which is the reason why my friend in the first place said, Natalie, you already have experience in HR. Why don't you get into recruiting anyway? So. I did that, I started just learning as much as I could prior to me in a way of reaching out to this gentleman. The funny thing is the contract was he was supposed to teach me for almost six months. We were going to meet three times a week for two hours and he was going to just spin away like a class and everything. I had all the people. So I set up everything around my life to the point that I could focus on these. I was working, again, I was working as a community support worker. That was my title, which is for pretty much assisting low-income families, but at the same time, working in child abuse prevention. So I had a workload of over 16, I believe it was 12 15 to 16 families I had. What I'm trying to say is I had very little time to do anything else other than my 9 to 5, which was like 9 to 9. But I still accommodated this process that I was interested because, again, I needed a change. Long story short, I asked my manager, I need more free time. So I did so many things for this gentleman to come and say, Natalie, I'm sorry, I have to leave. Two weeks into the process, this guy leaves.

Two weeks into this?

How many months was it supposed to be? It was supposed to be six months. But what I'm saying is the amount of changes I've made in my life and at work to accommodate this process, pretty much what I did is I told my boss, I will be leaving this job in about three months. So I need you to give me this time. So also you start finding someone that was the, that was the only way. So I'm really, I'm the reason I'm highlighting these details is to, to kind of give you an idea of the position that I put myself in. But then this gentleman, even though we already signed the contract, he said, there's an emergency. I have to go out of the country. So he only gave me in those two weeks, because of everything that was happening between his health and something that was going on in his, I don't know. He only gave me two classes. So with those two classes, I said, okay, I can't wait a month and a half until he comes back. I have to do something. So with those two classes that he gave me, I went to Amazon. I bought, I remember three different books. One of them was Rockstar, Recruiting Rockstar. And then I started watching this one guy, I did my own research and I said, I need to find, you know, some, some individuals that are, that are teaching on me. So I found this one guy on YouTube who had a whole life cycle explained and he had, anyway, he was putting up his, he was putting his content out there for free. But I remember I spent every waking hour that I was not at work, just studying recruiting. Now, fast forward. I will say three and a half months. No, no, no, actually, no, no, no, no. A month, because by the time my, let's just call him my instructor. Once my instructor came back, I explained to him, I had already cleared two interviews at Amazon, and he couldn't believe it. He was like, I would have never, Natalie, suggested anyone, not even completing my, not even individuals that completed the program, to start off of Amazon, you're not going to make it.

So don't- I interviewed at Amazon as an experienced professional. I got flown to Seattle and it was one of the most horrible experiences of my life. So I can totally relate to that.

I'm going to tell you this, Natalie. I am no expert about Amazon, but what I have seen is that there are certain people that naturally can portray the culture of Amazon. And you seem to be a person that has that assertiveness. And I, you're going to tell me, no, you don't have the confidence, but you portray confidence. That's why you got what you got because you put every ounce of effort into it.

Thank you. Thank you, Adam. But yes, I had to, I honestly believe this is now kind of, you know, kind of like on the side, I personally believe. that when an individual wants to make a radical change, you need to be fed up of the way you have been living. I think that's the only way that you're going to give it all, like completely. And I had no choice but to give it all. I was looking at my daughter. I was looking at my situation. I was just fed up. Every ounce of my being was, I need a change. And if this is how I'm going to make it, then I have to give it my all. So I had to. Anyway, so by the time this gentleman came back, I had already finished those three books that I bought off of Amazon. And I'm not, I love reading, but I'm not going to lie. I'm not one of those that will eat up a book in a week, not even a month. I like reading, but it takes me a while. But again, I had a goal. I needed to, I needed a change. I needed to be able not to worry about the, how am I going to pay the rent? I was just so, so sick and tired of just being in such a horrible situation, even though I loved what I was doing. I'm still a social worker. Years later, I loved what I was doing, but I did not appreciate how little I was getting paid, the zero opportunities around. And also, again, I was struggling. I remember I was struggling much more than some of the families that I was assisting. Anyway, so by the time I am now interviewing at I'm telling the instructor. So he just put me down like, Natalie, I don't even understand why you did this. Um, what makes you think that you're prepared? And all I said to him and I said, listen, I just need one thing from you because at this point you left, I understand situations happen. I didn't put the blame on him because genuinely I could tell that he was not like physically he wasn't well and there was a lot going on. So I try to be understanding, although I didn't get the same, right? And I remember I just said to him at this point, I just need you to give me the best you can give me like, because I have the third interviews coming up in two days. So if you have anything right now that can, that can help me, even though you don't believe I'm going to, I need it now. So anyway, he gave me this one class because I, I think from those three classes he provided, I did get, some substance that I was able to, you know, provide, but still everything really came from mostly. This gentleman that I found on YouTube at the same time I had paid by the time he said I have to leave two days later, I found this, this program in New York city. I remember I paid like $700 and I paid for this, this program. Again, that was my savings. I said, I gave it all. So I had no choice. I said, I cannot fail at these. Either I make it there or I make it somewhere else, but I have to make it. So, anyway, long story short for interviews and as Joe said. Again, at the time, I didn't have an experience. I didn't have an experience of what what was out there for me. That was my 1st time interviewing at a such large company and I'm coming from being again. I was supporting one of my mentors at his own company in the HR department and also recruiting, but again, I was just shadowing the recruiting. I was helping. So I'm not going to lie. I did have some experience, but when it came to interviewing at levels of that way, I didn't know what to expect. And that was a really good thing for me. Because for me, it was like, okay, this is what it is. I didn't think it was really hard to really, I just thought it is what it is. This is what they're asking. And by the time that I had the second interview, I had already prepared. So pretty much what I did is okay. If in the first interview I was asked at this level, I need to prepare at this level for the, for the, so that was pretty much what I kept doing. I said, whatever they're asking me in the first one, I'm going to just build up from there. So. Um, intentionally, I try to ask them, give me two weeks between interviews. So I could like, you know, gain more as much as I can. And that's what I did. So anyway, by the time, um, I cleared the fourth interview, I, the first one was with a manager. It was two managers and two directors. Um, it was just the most nerve breaking thing, but I made it. I couldn't believe it guys. When I tell you that my first day at Amazon and I'm looking, I'm I was shaking. I'm in this huge building in New York City. The Empire State is right in front of it. All I could think in my mind is like, I made it. I swear to you. I was in such a state of shock that I made it there. I don't know. I mean, I played it cool. I don't think nobody was able to tell. This lady just came from Newark. She came from just assisting families in the worst situations and now she is She's had these professional hat on and I'm like, Oh, I've been doing this for a while. You know how you got to play it off. Like, although I was hired at the, I was hired as a sorcerer, which is still cool. I love when people say, so what is your title? I'm a sorcerer, which in reality, it just, it just means that I was the assistant of a recruiter in less than six months. I moved about four levels, which you'd also like for me, I was, I wasn't this, I was, How can I say this? I was in this pattern of winning and I couldn't understand why until now I look back and I, of course, Natalie, I mean, you gave it all. That's why, you know, you were just, I, I feel that again, I was so scared to fail because I knew that failing at that level meant no money whatsoever because you already invested everything you had in, in getting to this job. So for me, failing at that level would mean even a worse situation that I was in. So I think I was just in a state of panic for months and, you know, I just kept giving it my all without realizing that, wait, I was the first one to get the first hire. I remember I was hired with four people and I was the first one to get the first hire, which was this one manager who they couldn't find for over six months with a team of five. And then I was hired there and within exactly three and a half weeks, I found this individual. And then, you know, it just kept happening. So a part of me believed that it was meant to be. And another part of me was like, you were giving it your all. Like it just, I was in a state of panic. And I think that that helped me in some, you know, to certain capacity. Now, when I was there, I was a little bit more stable. Um, I was now kind of like, Now, given a six, seven months, um, I find myself in just kind of like, okay, I think I get it. I'm here now I'm doing well. Uh, people can, you know, people are, I wouldn't say respecting me because I do believe that Amazon in, in this is, it was very difficult to hire individuals, especially when they, they, they, like I said, I started going up the ladder. So I began as, um, as a sorcerer. But then I became a technical recruiter. Then I moved to level six, which meant I was recruiting managers and directors. So I was on a managerial level. I said, I can't believe this. And it really happened when one of the managers had to leave, one of my managers had to leave on an emergency. And I remember she just said, Natalie, the only thing I'm going to ask you is, I'm not going to ask you to make hires. All I'm going to ask you is, Do not let my pipeline go down. So pretty much don't let this thing don't let all the work that I've been doing for months, just because I have to leave. And I'm like, no pressure. No, of course not. I had to handle my own thing that had to handle hers. Well, it was a blessing in disguise because when she came back, she, she didn't only find that her, you know, that her, that her, I guess the state of her work. was stable, but it was also high, a little high. I'm not going to lie here. Oh, I did better than her. Never. But I think that's when she realized, wait, there's something with this person. So by the time I left Amazon, when I decided, which I'm going to go back to that and how it happened, but when I transitioned here, she contacted me when she became head manager. She said, Natalie, I want you to come to my team. To me, that meant the world to me. I was like, wait a second, you are contacting me. I already left Amazon and you still find me valuable enough now that you went up the ladder to have me in your team. And I gotta be honest, that didn't happen only with her. It also happened with one of the co-workers that I had who, he was a much higher level than I was, but then he became a manager and months, no, like two years later, I got this email from him, Natalie, are you interested? just joining, and I said, I'm no longer at Amazon. That just goes to tell you, for me, it was very difficult in the sense when I was, again, going back to when I was a recruiter there, to Joy's point, the culture is so difficult, so cutthroat, so, in my opinion, but at the same time, when it comes to the level of skills that you get at a company like that, it's something that, in my opinion, has been extremely valuable to this day. But that's also a reason why I said I don't like recruiting. I was now in a position to make decisions in my life. I had options. For the first time in my life, I had options. Given my background, which it's a really long story, so we're not going to get there too much, but I found myself with options. And then I said, Natalie, what are you going to do? And I couldn't believe I had that option. I couldn't believe I could actually say that. to me, to myself, and have resources to back up whatever it is that I wanted to decide.

Can I say a couple things? Really quick, I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Number one, I'm hoping, and we don't have a large audience, I'm hoping we do one day, but the people that watch, I'm hoping they're moved by who you are and how you are, because there are so many people that don't have that capability. We did a podcast with one gentleman, his name is Chris Roberts, and we always talk about mental health. Because mental health, in every single aspect of our lives, cybersecurity, whatever it is, mental health is one of the most important things. And a good portion of us, including myself, we have our issues with mental health. We often wonder, are we doing the right thing? Are we succeeding? But one thing I'm going to applaud you about is when it got tough, You didn't fold, you kept going. And that is so important for people to hear. And it doesn't mean that everybody is going to be reflective of your success, but I believe two things. I'm not really a person that is really religious, but I do believe that there's a higher being and maybe that higher being was looking out for you. But two, I also believe you made your own success as well. So I applaud you. And the other thing I'm going to say is I am so upset, even though you are such a nice person, that I thought that person took advantage of you. Because one of the things I hear often, I talk about being an EMT, and this has nothing to do with the social work aspect of it, but You know, as an EMT, we never tell everybody everything's going to be okay. We say, we'll do the best we can. However, you needed hope at that point. And you wanted somebody to give you hope. And he did not give you hope. He's like, why would you do that? That's you needed hope at that point. So thank God. Thankfully, you made your own success and your own hope. You kept it positive as much as you can. And I'm sure during those times of positivity, I don't want to speak on behalf of you, but I know I would have cried. So I know you had your downtimes also.

I cried. I cried. I think I cried during one of the interviews, but they didn't notice. Like I said, I was in a state of panic, literally, constantly. But thank you, Adam. God bless you.

God bless you.

Well, at the same time, unfortunately, the person I consider my mom, she was dying at the hospital out of pancreatic cancer. And I think, again, when I go back to where my mind was, my mind was in such an altered state. It was constantly like, you just need to do things so right, because you have very little time, whatever you see. As soon as I left work at Amazon, I will go straight to the hospital. Again, she died. She died before she saw my transition into cybersecurity. But I remember like I was juggling those two things, meaning being in a way, just getting stable or just getting acclimated to this new career mindset, this new company. But at the same time, getting ready for her death. See what's coming. But at the same time, I'm also still a single mom. And I think that was it. I said, OK, you know what? There's nothing I can do with my mom. This is happening. I think like that a lot. I feel like I'm very logical in that sense. But it's like, There's nothing I can do other than to honor her through my progress. But at the same time for me, when you said, Natalie, how come you didn't let yourself break? And I said, I think I was doing these while I was broken. And I believe in that. So many people believe, in my opinion, that you have to be you have to be well to do things well.

No, I was not well.

And I was doing things well. And I think it's like sometimes through your brokenness, there is when you accept it. And I said, I'm, I am in pieces inside. My mom is dying. I'm still, I'm suffocating in my own fear when I'm going to make this or not, because the reason why I couldn't let myself fall into pieces, which was the only thing I feel like I didn't let happen. But inside of me, I was broken. Um, is the fact that if I let that happen, my daughter wouldn't be able to eat. Like, I don't have family here. Like I said, I had no choice. But I do believe that the strength of motherhood, right? To me, my daughter has been the engine of everything I do. The reason of everything that I have done has been her because I, you know, as parents, I don't know if you guys are parents, it's like you, You are okay struggling yourself, but you don't want your kids to struggle. That's why you do everything that you do. So it's the same for me. I'm like, I know how hard my life has been. Well, if I don't, if I don't change it, then my daughter is going to have a really difficult time. It's just the way it is. You know, the cycle is going to continue. So for me, knowing that my mom was, you know, she was taking my aunt, knowing that my aunt was going to be out of the picture soon, I just kind of had this numbness in me. It's like, you know what? Just have this, I had this mentality, just get things done. There's nothing else you can control, Natalie. Just get things done. As soon as you leave this job, go to the hospital, talk to the doctors, make sure she has the pain medication. everything that she needs, just be there for her, go back home, cook, take care of Sophia and go back tomorrow morning to work and do what you need to do and do it. And don't think, are you tired? I literally tried not to engage in too much of like emotional thinking because I knew I, there was, you know, I was not going to be able to hold it out. It could, it could really turn me into pieces. It could just break everything that I was working for. So, It took me a long time for me to release that and to just allow myself to grieve. It took me years actually to allow myself to grieve what I went through with her, what I went through with my own drastic change because I had to let a lot of people go. Parts of myself had to go because I'm now in this completely different life, completely different mindset, completely different schedule, completely different area. everything, but again, there's a grieving process that I didn't allow myself to go through because I couldn't. I was focused on being very robotic. You have to get things done.

How did you prepare yourself? So now you transitioned from a recruiter to cybersecurity. Now, I'm sorry, I'm just so interested in what did you do to get that knowledge in cybersecurity? Did you do the same thing? Did you rip into books? Did you go online? Did you look at YouTube? Yes and no.

Well, hang on. Let's back up a little bit first. First of all, I'm blown away by this story. Me too. We haven't even heard the whole thing yet. That's what I'm saying.

But before you started studying, what

made you start looking into cybersecurity? Because I mean, you know, you start in social work, you go to Amazon as a recruiter, you know, kind of chose the toughest mountain to climb, you possibly could, you know, not, not just going into the corporate world, but you know, one of the toughest companies get into, like you said, the most cutthroat when you're there, you, you get there, you do well. And then you decide, okay, time for another career change. I mean, and you choose cybersecurity, which is also not an easy field. I mean, so how did you kind of get to there and then start working?

How did it happen? Again, I had options. So I was, the pandemic happened, but in the pandemic happened. And I'm really glad to say in one of the best positions in my life, which I had options. Like I said, I know it might sound like, but for someone that grew up without many options and then became a mom and realized my options are so limited. When I found myself with options and options was, I have resources, I have money, I have savings. That's what I mean by options. And I said, Natalie, from here, either you stay in this company and you continue. I was a contract, but I was already given the choice. Natalie, you, if you want, you can, you can, you can apply to become permanent, but I had so many. Terrible experiences at that job and part of that was the culture big part of that a lot of. from sexual harassment all the way to, you know, just really. And I gotta say, it wasn't there. I mean, sexual harassment happens almost in every industry. I've been in what, three different industries now. So, but it was not only that, it was just the individuals I was working with, the type of managers that I had, just in the amount of hours I was put in a week. So, but also the nature of the job. my personality, I didn't like the fact that I had to chase people. And obviously, I was very observant. Again, I'm coming from this process I created, and it pretty much came from observation. Yes, the books gave me a foundation, the training I took in New York, this gentleman that I contracted, it gave me a foundation, but everything really comes from how observant you are, how are you retaining information. So I'm looking I'm being, I'm trying to be very observant through this process that I'm, that I'm in to the, the job that I have, the processes that I, that I'm working with. And, and I said, wait, what are these people? What are, I was very focused on the people that I was hired to go after. I said, wait, so I started noticing and said, I want to do that. I want to be in a position where people call me. I want to be. So that's when it started.

So you saw the jobs that you were recruiting for, you saw what they were getting paid. And he said, I was getting paid to get these. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I'm saying, you said, oh my God, I have a wreck for this job and they're going to get paid that much. Wait, I can do that.

No, no, no, no. I didn't, I didn't really process it that way or rationalize it.

That's how I did.

Yeah. That's how you did it.

No, no, look, my first job in cybersecurity was a company that Joe worked at. I was always into security, but I got a job in security and Joe inherited me as an employee. Joe was my boss, that's how we met. And Joe always liked to tell people, I never hired Adam, I inherited him. That's right.

Oh my God. So anyway, for me, We have to go back to when Sofia was like four years old and I've always been very busy. Like I like staying busy, especially learning things. Like I, I don't know. I, I, I'm very curious in nature. And if you tell, for example, right now you talked about that, um, chocolate egg, egg cream.

So yeah, it just, no egg in there. Go ahead.

So I know when this ends, that's one of the things I'm going to look up because I'm curious. That's my nature. So that goes back to Sophia was four. So it's like, I don't know, back in 2000, maybe 2016, 2014. I don't know. Anyway. I did take a bootcamp back then for networking, but it was one of those bootcamps that didn't have any labs. It was just, in my opinion, it did have labs, but I remember I spent eight months there and I got very little out of that. This also, again, I was separating at the time, I was working two jobs, but I heard, I started doing this research and I heard about technology and people just being able to get into technology through bootcamps. Well, for me, I took this bootcamp, nothing happened. Two years later, I am hired at this nonprofit organization. This was prior, this was before me starting working as a social, I've always been a social worker, but I was not working directly with families as I had at that time. So, Anyway, I got hired to work at this nonprofit organization in Elizabeth and and I was, I remember I was the programs coordinator. I was the, the HR. I was in in-house IT and I was like, I was very honest to the gentleman who was hiring. I said, IT, yes, I did take a course. And he's like, Natalie, your terminology is already telling me that you know more than anyone in here. So yes, you're going to be in charge. And I was like, okay, um, sure. So I didn't have to do much to be honest, but that's, that was my first experience with a ransomware. So we got hit with a ransomware attack and we, we hired these We had a third party company who was supposed to be patching our systems. And long story short, I remember I'm just seeing the entire incident response process. And I am experiencing a real cyber attack. I'm seeing like the computers are getting encrypted, and this message is popping up telling us, you know, the Bitcoin that we... Anyway, so I'm seeing the whole process. And that stayed in my mind, but I never really thought, oh, I'm going to get into technology. After that job, I went back to social work cause I did try to get something in technology, but again, it was so difficult. It was because again, my experience was so limited, but it stayed in my mind. Okay. Stayed in my mind. I also took that course back in 2016. So when I'm on Amazon, this is coming back to me. I am recruiting this individual. So I'm chasing them, calling them, emailing them. And I'm seeing some of the qualifications. And I said, wait, some of them didn't go to college for this. So some of them were coming from boot camps. And I remember when we were in Seattle in this huge meeting, we literally are being told, I was assisting on InfoSec A recruiting. And I remember we were specifically told, look for individuals that are graduating from these boot camps. And so we asked, so no degree? Like, no, for this role? So again, I'm observant. I'm keeping all these things in my mind. When the time came for me, the pandemic happened, we got laid off. I was told, Natalie, don't worry. In August, we're most probably going to call everyone back. But that's when I said, do I want to go back? And I said, no. So I had already before, through the entire thing, even with my aunt, I had this in the back of my head and I said, can I transition the same way I did? Can I transition into technology? So I had already done some research on certain boot camps. Long story short, I decided if I don't do this now during the pandemic, I'm never going to be able to do this. Because one of the biggest challenges I had is who's going to take my daughter to school? Who's going to be able to cook and pick her up Like right now she's home with me. She's going to school from home. I can do everything from home. So I said, if it's not now, it's never. So I did it. I said, I had already had, I already had identified certain places that I knew were reputable. I had already looked at, so I took all that information, put it on a paper and just said, okay, I just need the loan now. And that's what I did. I, It was one of the most difficult. You guys think Amazon was difficult? No. I feel like after my daughter, the most difficult thing was transitioning to cybersecurity. I swear to you guys. For me, it was- Well, you're a little unique.

Most people who say going into cybersecurity already have a background in something related, something closely related. In fact, when a lot of people ask me, even before the era of cybersecurity degrees and stuff, they say like, and these are usually IT people, they say, how do I get into security? I go, start by becoming an expert in two or three things in IT, and then go in. But to go into that with, wow, from something completely different again, is very unusual, and I imagine it's not easy.

I think you have to be a little bit crazy too.

I'm definitely crazy. That's another story.

You know, it was very difficult, but I think it's also, I was, I feel like a part of me wasn't in this transforming, just like I need, if I'm already doing this, Natalie, where do you want to see yourself? You already started, things are working out. You already have this mindset that has given you, again, I got into recruiting with the most brokenness that I remember in me, and I'm coming from the lowest part of my life. So I feel so inadequate. I feel, but then I start seeing the result of my work. So that's increasing my self, like my self-confidence that I haven't felt in years, probably. So I think I was also leveraging. the self-confidence in a way, and also my aunt, by the time she was already passed, she already died. And so I found myself in a very unique position in the sense that my daughter was home. I already feel confident. No matter how difficult things are, I can do it. Because if I was able to do it while my aunt was dying and I'm just coming out of all the situations and I said, you're not in the same space, Natalie. You're not in the same position. Things are easier. You have now savings. You have a better, your daughter's here. This is easier. So I think I just took a lot of strength and I leveraged a lot of the mentality and the mindset and the in the, I guess, increased self-confidence that I had from the process that I experienced at Amazon, that I said, I can do this. I guess I never expected how difficult it was going to be. It was just so difficult. For me, it was very difficult. Yeah.

So what did you take and how long did it take you to kind of educate yourself?

So the bootcamp was, for me, it lasted almost Eight months. It was supposed to be four months, but I had to do it twice because the first time I failed, I failed. I didn't feel, I didn't, I didn't feel, I mean, I didn't, I didn't make it now for long. So it was, I remember I was off maybe like 10 points and I couldn't believe it. I said, guys, it's just like this. Like, Natalie, we can't do it. We can, you have to retake it or you just drop it.

Did you have to pay it again?

No, I had to pay only a fee. So only like $2,000 more. And I'm like, okay, then I don't care. I'll go for it.

God bless you for your, for your, you know, for your momentum and for your tenacity. I just want to say one thing, Natalie, we had another woman on the show. Her name, we call it Dab Smash. And she was a nurse that transitioned into cybersecurity. And that's the story in itself. If you get a chance, look at that episode. It's not exactly the same as you, but she went from being a nurse into cybersecurity. And now she's going to law school.

Oh, how beautiful. Oh my God. Definitely. I'm going to watch that episode for sure. I need that type of inspiration. So, I think that's what it was. Anyway, it was very difficult. But again, I feel like I already had some, like a scaffolding, like I had already built something in my mind that I feel, and I still feel that way, that I feel that that's all you need in order for you to take on challenges. I'm not saying in order for you to be successful, because I don't consider myself a successful person, but I'm just grateful that things have worked for me. And it come from that mentality was like, In a way, I'm going to say it in a raw way. I'm going to put it in raw words. It's like you just have to be okay with walking through hell and you just have to accept hell for what it is. It's going to be painful, but it's momentarily.

Success is not based on how much money you're making or do you have a house and don't have a house. Success is based on your achievements, and as you move forward, there might be little achievements, there might be great achievements. And I know some people are going to listen and say, Adam, BS, success is based on how much money you're making and stuff. It's not. You have a positive mindset, you're taking care of your kid, you're doing what you want to do, and you're successful at it because you keep on achieving. Even if you fail, Even if you fail, it doesn't mean you're not achieving. It just means that you have to take another step. And people, unfortunately, too much focus on their failures than their successes. If you keep on focusing on failures, you're never going to get anywhere.

A hundred percent. So when I, when I found myself with choices, I made the choice that I said, I want to have people calling me asking, do you want to work for us? I really wanted to be in the position that I, that I, that I found myself just pretty much chasing after people. I said, I, whatever it is, Natalie, put yourself there. What's the easiest pathway for you? Because you can now go, go to school right now. I can, I cannot invest for years. I mean, I had savings, but not for a year for your savings. You know what I mean? So when I found at Amazon that at this level, they're recruiting people that were, they're coming from a bootcamp that motivated me a So anyway, there at the bootcamp, I failed the first time, the second time around. But one of the greatest things that was given to me at the bootcamp was this one project. I remember by the time, again, because I had a little bit more experience than my peers on the second cohort, they came, so I came at top two when it came to the red teaming, red teaming projects and pen testing, I was the top two. So I remember one of the instructors came and said, Natalie, I'm going to give you the MITRE ATT&CK framework with the Red Canary Atomic Red Team project. I remember guys, it took me 15 days over a week, almost 15 days just to understand what in the world was I given just to understand it.

Did he, did you realize that at the time that he had like for security, he had basically given you the equivalent of like a formula one car. That's basically, I go back to me being interviewed at Amazon.

I'm like, I don't know what I'm seeing. I think this is normal. You know, I remember all the ones were given. Bloodhound, they're giving Wireshark, and he gave me the Atomic Red Team project. I thought it was really cool, but I remember just having such a hard time just understanding. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm understanding the terminology, I'm understanding the bigger picture. But then I'm like, how do you deploy the scripts? In a matter of minutes, you can actually deploy or mimic a certain attack. What? How? So anyway, a month passed because we had a month and a half, I think, to finish that project. And I got to be honest, I had another gentleman helping me. We both did it very well. But I continue working on that project myself after the bootcamp. I continue, you know, I had my lab at home and I'm just building more and more attacks. And it seemed because that's not emulation, that's simulation. So we're simulating more and more attacks. And I happen to start now applying for jobs. And I got called by this one threat teaming company. And well, long story short, I made it. I cleared the interview with them as an emulation, threat emulation engineer, I believe the title was. I couldn't believe it. Of course, I was hired as a junior. So I learned so much about the Purple Team framework with this one company. And it was one of the biggest blessings. They were very much aware that I was coming from a bootcamp. But I remember during the interview, the interviewer was, OK, usually we do this in a second interview, but your interview is going so well. He said, oh, my God, the feedback was just so beautiful. And he said, why don't you move right now, Natalie? Just tell me if I were in front of you and you're going to present this tool, how would you do it? I just, I just, again, remember with Amazon, I had already asked them, the recruiter, what should I prepare? Like the craziest thing I should prepare is like, Natalie, you should prepare also to present this tool if they ask you, but that must be on the second or third interview. She said that. Well, I prepared specifically was for the first interview. So by the time he said, can you do it right, right now without preparing, don't say anything, tell me. And I remember I said, okay, I started talking about RecServe 32. Um, and I'm just talking about the process and I'm talking about MITRE ATT&CK framework and what the ATT&CK framework is and what are the sub techniques of a particular. And the guy was like, that's it. Um, Natalie, you did very well. We'd let you know. And the recruiter was like, Oh, you know, she's also interviewing for all the places. We want, is that true? Okay. So give us one hour, Natalie, you're going to hear from us in one hour. And they extended the offer.

So Natalie, I know people, I know people. I know red team people. I know them personally. I try to get a job and they wouldn't even talk to me. You don't even know the people and they offer you a job. That's amazing.

I don't know what to say.

God bless you. Joe knows what I'm talking about. I spoke to this Israeli company that does a lot of red teaming around the world and blue teaming, whatever. And I'm like, hey, give me a job. They're like, you don't want to. No.

So it was, it wasn't easy again, but again, I, I think it's, I learned so much about, I'm not, I'm not going to pretend here that I learned, you know, all the pen testing here or even emulation in general utilizing that particular tool. But I did learn so much about the framework that to me has been the basis of everything that I learned in cybersecurity. It always comes on top of that framework that I learned. It's like, okay, it's, you know, collaboration. clarity, just understanding processes, people and technologies. It's like everything that I have learned has building up. So I'm really grateful because in a way, I have the opportunity to enter cybersecurity from like an eagle eye perspective, right? Because Purple Teaming is giving you this holistic view of cybersecurity. And I feel very grateful in that sense that I was able to see, at least understand the very principles of cybersecurity from that perspective, because that was everything I was absorbing at the time, like I'm ingesting all this information, it's coming like, okay, it has to be this way.

So Natalie, it's clear that you have that perseverance. I think Joe's probably going to ask the same question I might, but what's next for you? What are you looking to do? I think we're kind of wrapping up a little bit, but what's next for you in your career or what's your next goals?

Well, so that process, so this is really beautiful too. The process that I developed to transition from social work into recruiting and then recruiting to cybersecurity, that became a framework that I have been sharing for the past three and a half years with women in cybersecurity, the military branch. So this process now is a methodology that I've been sharing not only with WISES, the military branch, but also at universities, I've been asked to speak at different boot camps. And I've been now hosting every now this year is every other month. Last year we had it every month. And it's hard when individuals are trying to change careers. So I developed this methodology that I, that I, and again, at the time, I didn't think I was developing anything. I was just helping myself. I was just helping myself to get out of the situations I had, but then, When I already found myself in cybersecurity, I had so many individuals that I went to school with, to the bootcamp, like, Natalie, we haven't been able to find a job. And I said, hey, honey, just try this. This is what I did. And then I started noticing, oh my God, this works so well. And I started sharing it with other people. That's when I realized whatever process I developed, which it was in a way reversing many of the processes that I use as a recruiter myself. And I said, okay, instead of finding candidates, I'm going to find jobs. I'm going to put myself in the position of a recruiter. So what's next to answer your question, Adam, is expanding on that. So I am very grateful that I have been able to support the industry. Not only that I'm grateful for the industry for what it has given me personally, but I also feel so grateful that I can give back and say, I am here because of individuals that believed in me, gave me an opportunity, but also because of this process that, again, I didn't think I was creating anything, but it was a thing, very much a thing. And it has been helping so many people. I meet with some of them, uh, one-on-one for them, the ones that might need a little bit more attention. But we, I provide the classes, um, and we have this beautiful agenda. And during that, during the workshop, it's also about, um, mindfulness, the mindset that a person should have, how to, you know, how to see a struggle as an opportunity when possible, and sometimes how to accept things for what they are. But that's what's next. I also have my own nonprofit organization, it's GIA Community, and we also provide cybersecurity assistance, especially to individuals also to struggling with addiction. So one of the things that I first came in contact with, again, remember I said I am a social worker in cybersecurity, I started noticing that unfortunately, especially on the Red Team side, I came across so many individuals who are struggling with different type of addictions in the, yes, in cybersecurity, but mostly on the Red Team side. So again, I come from my organization. Yeah, my organization provides Narcan, right, for pretty much the antidote to reverse overdoses. We provide it locally. So, right now, I was given the opportunity to go to this conference, the cybersecurity conference in Philadelphia, and I put my booth, and I put so, like, hundreds of kits of Narcan. That was such a hit. People were so grateful that we're spreading awareness in the industry for all. So, through cybersecurity, we, not only my organization, not only we provide Narcan to people with needs in other states, But also locally, we provide a lot of cybersecurity awareness training at different local libraries. And at the same time, one of the biggest projects that I've been working on directly is going to different high schools and middle schools and just helping the kids be more safe online and just have, you know, larger awareness on cybersecurity in general, and also as a choice, as a field. And I also provide awareness on the different entry path. Okay, if you cannot go to college, did you know that there's board camps? So people are mind blown to learn about, you know, the different ways into cybersecurity. But I do, I do put a lot of emphasis that they need to be responsible. This is an industry that requires, in my opinion, we need people that are committed, you know, that are committed to making this space better. And so I do try to balance both. Yes, it's going to make your life better. But at the same time, we need you like we need you committed. Because there's a lot to do in this space. So that's what's next for me. It's just seeing how much I can give back. Because I'm a social worker at heart. And it just happens that I love technology. Simply also because of the way I'm a logical person. So it really goes well with my own personality. But at the same time, it's like there's so many opportunities to help and give back. And I just happen to have, I'm grateful to have so many resources that come from my own organization. I've been running it for the past eight years. And in the past two years, locally, so there's two brands that we run with, two brands, GIA Cyber, which is pretty much everything cyber, and Grace in Action, which has been the pretty much everything in local. And we provide drive. So just this last Saturday, we had over 200 families joining us where they got diapers, we got formula, food, clothes, books, and we put up so many different events through the year. Being in this space is helping me to provide more support locally as well and vice versa. So for me, what's next is growing in my career as a cybersecurity engineer and growing my organization and continue providing as much as we can. So our slogan is, if we can, we should. And just to give you a real highlight on that, it's like my dad, when I was struggling so much, my dad called me, he lives in Colombia and he's like, Natalie, why do you keep doing this? You barely can, like you, why do you keep helping people when you're barely able to help yourself? And I remember I just, this came out of nowhere and it made so much sense to me. And I said that because if I can, then I should do it. That's it. That was my answer to him. not much logic to it. So when the moment came, Natalie, we need a slogan. If we can, we should.

I was thinking as you went through this and saying you're doing it for eight years, besides everything we heard about, like, do you sleep? I mean, seriously.

You do. I think in my opinion, when people look at me like, oh, she's constantly working. Not really. I just came from Poconos. I go to the Poconos at least every other week. I do try to keep my mind as clear as possible in order for me to give the best I can. So I'm very mindful of what's in here and what's bringing me down. And sometimes just going into nature is all I need. Sometimes a nice meal, intentional. Not just eating, oh, I'm eating delicious. No, I'm intentionally having a good time. I'm creating the space because I've worked so much and I can feel I'm just going kind of crazy. So I have a background in mental health, and then through social work, I've dealt with lots of mindfulness. And also in my own personal life, I was on a 10-year journey going through different religions, exploring different mentalities in schools of thought. And I think that has been so instrumental on, you know, just I guess I have been given through my own personal journey and explorations of so many different modalities in religions and philosophies, I've been given tools that help me analyze myself when it's like, okay, Natalie, you need to disconnect and you need to do something. So I think that's what really helps me to maintain the balance on all the things that I do is the fact that I, it's my, you know, mental health is imperative.

So one comment, one question. The first comment is your dad said it coming from a good place, right? He was worried about you. He was concerned about you. And, you know, I applaud you because helping others helps yourself and also makes you feel good about yourself and gives you that ambition, that drive. And the question I have for you is, it might be a direct, maybe a personal question and feel free not to answer it, but do you feel that your framework that you developed, has it helped a lot of other people? Have they been successful in, have they found the same success that you have found? And cybersecurity, however the framework works, is it, is a framework specifically for cyber and cyber only, or is it a framework for achievements?

That's what I meant. It's a framework that it's mostly for individuals that work in technology, not precisely cybersecurity. It can also, I mean, I, I just, um, so the framework has a life cycle, right. And it's really mirroring the life cycle of a recruiter, but it's also. Part of the life cycle of this framework is creating your own work experience, which is so crazy. And I have the most beautiful and most influential feedback that I've gotten in my life and career-wise was given to me during the interview with the first company that I ever interviewed with. It wasn't the first company that I landed, which it was between those two companies. I was interviewing, I made it to the last. And he said, It's been 30 years since I've been interviewing people. And this is the first time I come across someone that created their own work experience in such a relevant way for cybersecurity and for low-income communities. So he was like, just the way you think. So because of the feedback that this gentleman gave me, again, he is a director at one very large organization. And I just happen to be working at that organization now. Almost four years later, they contacted me again and I'm working. It's just beautiful. The whole experience, but going back to you, Adam. Yes. Now the framework, it has the different, you could say different modules. So people choose. I always say to individuals, if you find yourself like, I need this ASAP, do it exactly as I do it. Cause that's when I have seen people really like the first individual that I gave it to, and I was like mentoring her. In 90, she was over 90 days looking for a job. It took her only 27 days. She was the fastest person. I said, oh my God, you literally landed this job in 27, way faster than me. The third, the second person, it took him two months, but he was already looking for six months. So that's when I started noticing because I'm not, I don't believe in putting noise. We have a lot of noise out there. So one of the, one of the modules is creating your own resume. And I always say to individuals, this one, there's amazing information out there. I'm just putting this module here for awareness on what it's needing, but don't take it at all. But that's what I'm saying. The framework, it's, it's a, it's a fusion between my own knowledge and budget in, in, um, social work. And this is creating your work experience. I went into communities and I said, I had, I have some skills in technology and I'm willing to volunteer because I need hands on experience. But at the same time, I knew how much low-income communities need, how much help they need when it comes to security, when it comes to individuals with technical skills. Why? Because I experienced that ransomware. So because of all my experiences in all these industries, I came and I pretty much put it all together without knowing at the time that I was creating a framework that it was going to be helping people. I was trying to help myself. And I just happened to utilize, again, pulling from the knowledge that I had in different domains, things that were relevant. So to me, that word relevant, it has to be that way. I can come here and say, oh, it's the best framework ever. No, it's not. It's a framework that has worked for people. And the people that I have noticed that have really been committed to the framework, they're hired. They were hired. So that's why I decided, I said, let me put this out there and just share it, you know, I guess, at a larger scale. So I've been receiving beautiful feedback. And yes, I mean, for individuals that found themselves completely not being able to get any traction from recruiters to getting hired in a much faster frame of time, they expected it. To me, that's success. And it's the same framework that I still use when I'm going to transition to a different job within the same industry. So it's still breathing. It's a breathing and living thing. As soon as I come up to a different method, I said, let me just tweak it here because, you know, it's part of a life experience. So if I'm noticing that something could be better, I share it in the same way.

Very nice. All right. Well, Natalie, your story is really extraordinary. When's your movie coming out? There's quite a bit to it. Gosh, that is amazing. And I'll tell you, we haven't even touched on some of the other things that we've talked about. You mentioned that, you know, we've talked a lot about mental health and cybersecurity, hearing about that and the addiction, which is not talked about by anyone. That's really interesting. And a lot of your outreach to people, you know, watching them about cybersecurity and the whole thing of how you're integrating your social work. I'd love to say, well, you come back and we do this again. I mean, I really want to hear more about it.

I was talking to Adam the first time, remember Adam, but you were also telling me that you, your background is that it was an EMT. So I think, you know, when you, when you have a heart for communities, then you enter into cybersecurity and you realize it's a community. It's just, it's just a cyber community, but it's still a community. It's, it behaves in many ways, especially when you get, intimate in the community. Like when you open yourself up with people and say, if you need help, you know, I have this background and it's something I try to do. Everybody that's in my Twitter, they know I am still very much a social worker and I've worked with individuals, Adam and I were talking the first time, with suicide prevention, rape cases. So I have people in the community that come to me and say, Natalie, We need more of these and they are individuals. I also have I connected with this lady a couple of months ago. She's like Natalie. My manager asked me to to come to your classes because we're all and she's also in cyber security. And she's in a mindfulness size. Like, we're trying to do something very similar to what you're doing because I believe that the industry is resonating highly with within. I feel like it's important for us. to come out of our shells. And if you have a skill that is not related to cybersecurity, you might still very much relate it to the individuals that support this industry with their own skills. And I think that's what I try to do, whatever I... You have homework, Natalie.

Your homework is two things. One, watch the Gap Smash episode about how she transitioned from nurse to cyber. Now she's going to become an attorney. And then the other one is, if you get a chance, watch the Chris Roberts episode where he talks about mental health and all. And if you, if you're not following Chris Roberts on LinkedIn, maybe watch what he writes about because he pours his heart out.

He talks a lot about mental health.

I don't think I follow him. No, I don't think I do.

He's really good. He's really good. He talks about everything from riding his bicycle, uh, that helps, that helps him mentally. to talking about some of his issues, whether it's, I believe he has diabetes and other things. And it takes a toll. And he constantly writes about that.

And he writes about it and talks about it very openly. And he's one of the few people in security who do, actually.

So it's pretty unique. And it's something we need to talk about more. I'm seeing this more and more. I also have a friend named Elaine. her last name is escaping, but she has this beautiful talk on imposter syndrome related to mental health. And I said, wow, she's really been booming. I just love the fact that so many individuals are just coming out there and expressing their challenges. And I feel like vulnerability is really, it unites us, right? We have sometimes this mentality where like we have to portray ourself in such a perfect way, but none of us are perfect. And it's by exposing our vulnerabilities that we we kind of start lifting each other up. People can relate to you. We all have so many things that we can help each other if we just talk about it in a nonjudgmental way. For those of us that worked in communities, that's something we learned, right? Communities, it's exactly that. It's about unity. And if we separate ourselves by pretending that we are perfect all the time, how are people going to be able to connect? And I feel like we have such a beautiful community here. And I think the fact that I try to also be very vocal about my struggles, my story, has really made people feel more comfortable reaching out when they need help. And it makes me feel very grateful to be in the position of saying to someone, maybe I can help you, just give me the chance, as they also been doing that to other people. But we have to start somewhere. We have to start showing vulnerability in a mindful way.

So three things I'll add to that. Keep in mind, we're absolutely perfectly imperfect. Number two, when you talk about your vulnerabilities, people seem to think about, wow, I feel like I'm the only one that has that problem. But as people hear more and more about this, they realize, yes, a lot of people experience the same issues that I do. And people have to start understanding that We all have issues, we all have problems, and the more you open up about it, I think, the more you're gonna get an understanding from other people like yourself about what things are. There was a third thing, I forgot it already, but we are perfectly imperfect.

Well, when you start forgetting things, I think that means it's time to wrap it up.

Yeah, but we are perfectly imperfect, Natalie, we really are. There's nobody that has, oh, and some of the most successful people in this world are having very serious issues. They look successful and, and I'm not faulting them. I think there's a lot of great people out there, but just because they show such a success doesn't mean they're like, they're like ducks right on the surface. They look so good, but they're struggling also. So keep that in mind. Like when we speak to people that were like, Oh my God, I idolize. Yeah. There's some really good people out there. but just also be aware that they're probably having issues too, and don't always think that they're doing okay. They might need help also.

Yeah, no, you're very right. That's exactly right.

Right, well, a lot of people, we're not gonna end on a downer. I'm gonna say a lot of people are having more trouble than we think, but Natalie, you are definitely an example that- A shining light. Pull out of just about anything.

and make something good.

So thank you again for coming. This was really, really great to hear.

So I'm going to come out to you guys one day in New Jersey and we're going to all get an egg cream together. We're getting an egg cream. Stop, Joe, stop, stop.

Natalie, if you can get Adam to come to New Jersey, you have truly done the impossible. Really?

I go to New Jersey all the time.

Not to see me. You never come to see me.

I come to see you during the pandemic.

like three years ago.

No, listen, I'll come out to see you, Joe. We'll meet up with Natalie. We're all going to get an egg cream.

All right, fair enough.

We'll see. Fair enough. We'll see. We'll see if that happens.

Natalie, thanks again. Adam.

Thank you guys.

It's always good doing this with you. Okay. Thanks everyone for listening.