What Keeps Monte Fabiani Up at Night

All right. Welcome to the Security Cocktail Hour. I'm Joe Patti.

I'm Adam Roth.

Hey, Adam. How are you doing today?

I'm incredible. Life is beautiful.

Wonderful. A great day in Staten Island, I'm sure.

Yeah. It's 90 degrees. The wind's just a little breezy. It's all good.

Yeah. There you go. In November. November. Yeah, wow. Yeah, really. Well, we have a guest today. Yet another fabulous and interesting guest. Why don't we welcome Monty Fabiani. Monty, how are you doing?

I'm doing great today, man. Thanks for having me on the show.

Thanks for joining us. And let's see, what do we know about Monty? Monty is a professional technologist for over two decades. He's led incident response and threat hunting teams, as well as built over a dozen socks for Fortune 500 clients. So now, yes, so very impressive. Now our viewers know that I use another screen on the left, because that's what I'm reading from. But they may not all know.

Not the ones listening. Not the ones listening.

They totally have no idea.

Oh, that's right.

They do now, but now they do. You know all our production secrets here. Did you say Three Card Monty?

What's that say again?

Three Card Monty?

Three Card, I mean, I, yes. Or three card monte, which is the word for hill in Spanish. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. I just, I pull that out every time.

I was in Times Square about two weeks ago and actually saw a guy, it wasn't a three card monte game. He was running like the cups thing. And I'm like, Oh, that's still a thing. The cup. I thought the cops stopped him.

Who also comes up to play those? Like, where do those come from? It's all tourists. It's all, you know. But even, yeah, I guess, but it's almost like, you know, it's bizarre, right? Because you think of that as almost like an old truism about like, you know, New York City, right? You're going to get hustlers down there or something like that. You get a little three-card money, you can't win it. You know that.

And yet the crowd is like, Guys, it's the team, you know? It's a team sport.

Yeah, it's a little bit of vaudeville, I guess, right? It's a little throw over vaudeville. It's a performance. And when you think about it, maybe you come from, hey, maybe it's just you're paying for entertainment.

I've Googled YouTube videos where dogs were able to pick where the thing was. Yeah.

Of course, they can smell the difference. Yeah, you know, horses can count, too, if you, uh, they can do math.

Yeah, I've seen a horse do calculus before. It's pretty impressive.

Yeah, that is good. All right, so Monty, as our guest, as always, the choice of drink has been yours.

So what are we drinking today? Yeah, this is an interesting one, because we all have something different. Now, I have a 7 and 7. That's Seagram 7 and 7 Up. That's not something I've had for the last 20 years. I'll be honest. I had a sip of this, and I was like, is that what that tastes like? But it was actually, you know, what I propose is that we drink what we started drinking when we were young and started drinking, when you kind of have that immature drink choice. And this used to be mine. And, you know, there was a couple of options for me. It could have been a whiskey and diet. It could have been a rum and Coke. Those things you drink, but you don't care what things taste like at all. You don't know any better, you know, but the seven and seven Coke, I like Coke. It's what I drank it at Defcon five when I was 17 years old. And I, uh, I emptied out. I half a, uh, half a bottle of seven up and poured a liter of seagrams in it. And. use it as a cocktail because I could not buy drinks at the bar. But if you were, you know, hanging out in the fringes of this conference, you can kind of drink out of a seven up bottle. And it was all right. So it gives me that that that throwback of that time in my life. And I don't know how I drink that much of this because this is this is not great. This is not.

Well, I hate to tell you, but like if I saw a kid walking around with a big seven up bottle, I'd be like, Dude, nobody drinks 7-Up. It's like you're obviously got something else in there.

But it was 1997. It was a different time, you know? It was one of those things. I don't know if I was fooled by anyone. Don't get me wrong. I don't think I was. I drank Night Train when I was a kid.

Oh, Night Train. That's right.

Or Mad Dog 2020. The old MD. Yeah, Boone's Farm. You guys had Boone's Farm out east? It was like a wine cooler, but in a full wine that you twist it off for $2. And it was like a giant wine cooler. You'd get it fuzzy navel, several other flavors, a very sugary. It's very much like Mad Dog 2020, but in like an actual wine looking bottle. And yeah, you'd have a little Boone's Farm down here. Yeah. It's a thing you just don't drink as an adult. It's just not the choice you normally make. I don't know. Yeah.

Unless, well. So what have you got there, Adam? What's your choice from your, I don't know, from your distant past?

I steal what's in the refrigerator, that's not mine. This is a Kentucky Vanilla Barrel Cream Ale.

Wow. That looks good. That's what you drink as an adult though. That's one that you drink because it tastes good and you're an adult and you got the good flip. That's the great other end of the spectrum. But I think Joe has something from the beginning of that beer spectrum.

Well, I got something here. What I got here, I got to open it up. And I have an opener, because this is a class thing. I got Rolling Rock, which I went to grad school in Pittsburgh. And I did not come away with much from it besides a degree. However, I came with a fondness for Rolling Rock, because- Old La Trobe. From La Trobe, old number 33. And I can tell you, from having lived in Pittsburgh and Rolling Rock, is cheap, and it's a hell of a lot better than Iron City. Put it that way. I don't even know if that's still around.

Is it cheap or inexpensive?

You're right. It's inexpensive. It's an excellent value. Although I don't remember what I paid for it now. I don't know. Maybe this is expensive now.

But what I think is a great choice about it is it's actually still a decent beer now. You know what I mean? It is. It's nice and clean. Yeah, you're right. But as far as the kind of tasteless beer section, I like it nicer on the rock, nice and fresh. I always liked it, you know, I don't know why, just whatever, maybe. Yeah, I would still have one of those today, like another seven and seven. This is probably the last one you're gonna see me drink.

So I always wanted to open a coffee shop, but now that we're talking about drinks, we're all in cybersecurity, IT, maybe Joe, you and I, don't tell Monty, we should open up a bar that focuses on just cyber security people. And then in the corner, we can have a little radio studio and we can pick drinks specific, specific to what the cyber security mass drinks. Cause there's gotta be, we have to take a poll. What do you drink when you're in cyber security? What do you drink when you know that there's an incident response and you just can't handle it?

Well, you guys would get, you guys would get to the bottom of that answer, right? You would answer that question. for certain. And then you could have a whole like, you know, like podcast sort of live cybersecurity environment. I don't know if you guys could. It's pretty specific. Don't get me wrong. But I mean, man, I'll show up. I'll open and close your bar every day, guys. I'll be there. I'll hang out anytime you want. They're going to move to New York. So, so we can come through buddy.

The studio, the studio will have a glass into the bar, but it'll be soundproof. So we can do our recordings and people could throw things at us and cheer us.

Oh, that's even better than chicken wire. That's cool.

So I actually don't, I actually don't hate your idea. I don't hate the idea of particularly with as much streaming happens anymore. I feel like you could have different people broadcasting all day while you're in during business hours, not just you guys, but as well, other personalities. You can just have them get just all the way it's part of the attraction you see but you're also doubling on the space that way right you're actually doubling on the square footage that way making a studio as well as you know.

So this is supposed to be more of a you know cyber security thing but I think we can talk a little bit about the idea so we have a glass window behind the bar but we have to figure out where to put the drinks and maybe we can have a 360 view or I don't know.

they'll be underneath, they'll be underneath the bar in those grabbable areas anyway. And you know, the thing is, is that you're gonna have a lot of displays, right? You're gonna have LCD, LCD, LCD. So any type of actual display point you would have up there, either way, and you could see who's broadcasting up top. in real time.

One of our friends suggested to us actually Christian who is Chris tech on Instagram and YouTube was a good friend of ours He suggested that we do shows like from a bar like rent one out or talk Talk them into using it But like before it opens because no bar has a I can't think of a bar with a studio built in No, no, you guys just open the bar, right?

You guys open the bar and that this becomes a commercial for your bar as well as your main hobby, right? This drives people to the bar as well. It's like a free commercial as well as, you know, it's part of your career anyway. So that's fun.

I'll tell you this podcast ain't making any money. So if you got a bar, we got a much better chance.

I know. I've seen your numbers guys. I know. That's why we're here talking, man. That's why we're here talking, buddy.

www.gofundme.com forward slash security cocktail.

We're going to work together. We're going to make this happen. This is my pitch to be a co-writer and co-producer. I'm like, hold on guys, you gotta think this through. There's more to this. Yeah, this is actually.

So on one side, we're gonna have the podcast studio. On the other side, we're gonna have a five-person sock.

See that? Look at that.

Wow, you know, that's pretty.

And what does that create? You have your ear to the ground when you have a five-person. And you know the thing? You can even make the sock a not-for-profit sock. Whoa! That way, it can't win or lose money either way, but it can drive intelligence into everything else, and credibility, end to end.

Well, you know what we can do? We can make it like a, like a company town and exploit the workers. We're like, we got the guys work in the sock. We get them all stressed out. They go to the bar and spend all their money. You know, we get a bad hat.

That's selling your soul to the company store. But like, look, security cocktail. I was, well, how can I help? I'm a little bit inebriated.

We did we we actually modeled an old mining town and created into a cyber security space is what just happened.

Yeah They get paid four beers an hour an hour and two rations of food Yeah, only pirate booty Right on the bag No, but yeah, so the bar The sock has like a bar, and we have like the nuts that you would eat in a bar. That's where they get to eat. Yeah. I'm in. There you go.

There's no way to lose here, guys.

This is a good idea.

What are we even doing, wasting our time on cybersecurity?

Exactly. It's going to a real business on a bar.

Of a digital sweatshop.

But the key words have to be waterproof or liquid proof, because people are going to be spilling beers on it all day long.

all day long. Yeah. There are, there are, listen, there's challenges, but we'll work through those parts. And everything's a problem to be solved.

So, so as we're talking about opening up a sock and integrating it with a bar for our audience, uh, you know, Monty, why don't you tell everyone exactly what a sock is and some of the stuff you've been doing with it. And then they'll understand why you might want a bar next to one.

Yeah, no, like, uh, you know, I've been in a security operation center for geez, over the last decade. And, you know, Before that, I was just a humdrum IT guy for another decade or so. And what is a security operations center? That's where you respond to cybersecurity threats. In our case, actually, it could actually be a physical security center, but that's not what I'm here for. Oh, PISM.

Go ahead. PISM, Physical Security Information Management. Joe loves that. Well, we're talking about, you're getting very advanced.

We're talking about cyber.

You guys may be physical guys. Some of you guys are physical guys. I'm a cyber guy, cyber security operations guy. My specialty is threat hunting and incident response overall. And I've been doing that for the last decade or so. But I'll tell you what, I've been client facing. I've been an individual contributor. I've been a leader. And, you know, I always say the same thing is that the SOC's the best place to work. Like, I know it sounds funny, there's other jobs in security and, you know, maybe you're on site, I've been on site. You know, maybe, you know, you're at home, I've been at home. If there's any cooler place to work, it's the Cybersecurity Operations Center. You walk in there, you see the big screen, you lift up the desk and you know you're home. And it's one of those things I'm passionate about. I have been for a long time, so I've built multiple Fortune 500 SOCs You know, some of those places are, there's something special when you walk into it, you know, and you know it right away. And it's, it's just something that it's always hit me, man. Like, you know, I've worked a lot of places, done a lot of things, but you know, I'm the guy who's there early at the sock. I'm there late at the sock. You know, I'm the guy you can go, is Marty there right now? He's there right now. He's hanging out, you know, because that's what I want to be.

That's really interesting because you are a, a true believer in, you know, there, this, this is part of the thing in security. It's like, There are people who love that shit, who live for it. And there are people who either are not geared for it or have just had enough. And I can tell you, I've had enough of that. I hire guys like you to run a sock for me. You know what I mean?

But here's the difference. When we were working at the same place, we had a third party sock. So, you know, the question is, is it really much different dealing with a third party sock when it's not your own? Or is it different when you have your own dedicated sock for your organization? Because the troubles are different, right? And I mean, we had problems with that third party sock, even getting phone calls and communications to us. So there's different aspects of socks. I'm not going through that story. I don't want people chasing me. But the point is... Don't at me, bro.

Don't at me. We had a sock operator claim he couldn't understand Adam's Brooklyn accent.

yet but they had a little bit but but but i don't want to see what kind of his glorious his glorious brooklyn acts like they're going to watch tv we talked about exactly it i couldn't understand their accent but they couldn't even originate a phone call into the u s and that's another story in itself shock each sock has its own unique issues. If you're a global SOC and financial, it's a different type of thing than a global SOC that might be in manufacturing. And they all have their own issues and their own aspects of it. But when you have your own dedicated SOC for your own organization, you get to tailor it a little bit more to your own stuff. Because now you don't have, you have dedicated resources as opposed to, you have one person answering the phone for four different, five, 10 different companies.

They're just throwing it, throwing it over the fence, right? Like, I mean, that's always the kind of problem with it when you have a third party user managed service is they throw it over the fence at best.

And let me be obnoxious and arrogant, which is hard for me, but, but it wasn't me though. It wasn't me, but when we worked together, Joe and I, well I should say when I worked for Joe and he loves that, we built up that sock The queries, the use cases were done a lot by us to help build that organization. So you're investing in somebody else where when you work for your own organization in a SOC, you're investing in yourself. So use cases, we would write use cases for them. And, and I, I'm not going to say the guy, cause I don't want to give him credit, but he actually did some really good use cases when we worked together, he was really good at that. So you get my point. Every sock has his own unique flavor in culture.

But you're making a great point there is that, you know, uh, sometimes it's actually always, uh, when you use a third party, you use a managed service, you must engage unless you must not only engage, sometimes you gotta help them out. Sometimes you gotta lead them to the water, you gotta lead them to the light. And it's just the way it is sometimes. And you know, I have the experience of being a managed service guy. I have the experience of being a build a SOC guy, bringing people from managed service to their own 24 seven, you know, chase the sun sort of model. And you know, the main thing is that you're never fully realized until you can do it yourself. You know, you're never fully realized until you have your own operation that can trace the sun. That's it. It's not right for everybody. It's not. It's not feasible for everybody. That's the problem. Exactly. So in order to bridge that gap, you have to let that third party know that you're going to engage. Because the thing is, is they have every reason to be lazy. They have every reason to give you exactly the line of service, because it's race to the bottom, right? There's a lot of low margins. There's a lot of things. So it's one of those things where they're trying to make money making the sausage this way. So they have every reason to make the sausage thin. But if you let them know that you're part of that, you're going to engage with them. You're going to help them out, man. We're friends. We're partners.

and we're gonna lead you to life. So Joe and I, and you and I have a unique relationship too, which I'm not gonna go into, but.

Please don't, that sounds weird, but whatever.

Yeah, mind your business, Joe. So anyway, I'm kidding. So when Joe and I, when I worked for Joe, when you have a sock, right, you have a third party sock, or you have your own sock, the question is, are you hosting the sim? Are they hosting the SIM? Are you hosting the security endpoint detection response tools? Are they hosting it? Is somebody else hosting it, but we all have access to the same portals? It gets to be very, very unique. And not one size fits all. Though, the big socks, the big, big ones, they want everything. They want you to drink from them, eat from them. It's like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't drown it.

Well, let's back up a little bit, tell people what it's about. I mean, you know, a sock, if you have it, you know, an outsourced sock, if you're not running it yourself, it's like any other managed service and IT, you're basically outsourcing it. You're having someone else run it, run it for you. And you know, one of the reasons, you know, I said, like, it's not feasible for a lot of places to run it is just, just think about it. A sock is 24 seven. And if you don't have enough people, you need at least like six to eight people at minimum to run a just

Just on the front line, just on the front line, you know, like I always say the right way to do it is like 12 on the front line and 26 total. Just the right way to do it big. money way. But yeah, you can do the minimum like six on the front line ish. And then yeah, like it's, it's tough to do less than a dozen, right? Like top to bottom. So it's, it's a lot of people, man. That's it.

And, and they're expensive people that are hard to hire. There's a lot of turnover. So, you know, I mean, if you don't have an organization that can support that, you know, that just the organization isn't big enough yet, outsource it. Um, also, Uh, you know, some of the other things like all these expensive security systems that we, that we talk about, it's like you not only need to buy them or now subscribe to them and pay for them every year, but you need to operate them too. And a lot of places don't have the wherewithal, um, to, to hire the people to do it. And it can be more cost effective and really just more realistic in a lot of cases to, uh, you know, have your, to just give it to someone else who's, who's that's their specialty, but. You need that relationship. You need to make sure they're doing things the way you need it done.

That's the trick. Let me drop the bomb. Let me drop the bomb. Ready for the bomb? So, if you own to an organization where your clients or industry requires compliance, to get compliance for your SOC can be costly in the six figures or more. Am I saying six figures or more? I mean, you might need multiple compliances. multiple aspects of it. 100K for this, 150K for this, 200K for that. And you have to maintain it. And it gets to be crazy. Where Joe and I used to be, I could tell you an audit went on once a week, sometimes multiple a week. And that's 52 weeks a year that they really don't take off for audits. So if you have major clients and you're a world organization, You know, they won't, whoa, wait, you don't have that compliance or wait, can you show me evidence of this or evidence of that? So if you have that type of sock, you might have to be responding to audits constantly.

It's nonstop. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. You know, it's all like those are governance pieces, right? Like, uh, and it's so it seems. insurmountable from a guy like me who came from a very much a like, you know, technology company background into more financial institutions, et cetera, where there's more compliance, man, there are stumbling blocks that, you know, it takes a high level of skill to overcome and still be successful, you know, and those pieces are always tough. You know, I always, I always feel that way. And like, I feel like it's always been that way since the beginning of time where, you know, having to comply to things is rough because sometimes it's not in the same direction as security. Sometimes it's the opposite direction of security, but you still gotta go down there, touch that base and get to where you need to go.

So it's its own skill. And if you're a SOC and you're using vendors and you're using tools, then you have to make sure they're in compliance. And there are times that Joe and I laughed, like, what is this you're handing us? Oh, we did our own audit ourselves and we scanned it and this is the result. I'm like, that doesn't, Here's our song. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I can give you a coloring book and some crayons and that would probably match what you just gave me. So I've seen that. I'm like, guys, I understand and respect you're a small company, but I don't know that we can use you because you don't maintain the level of diligence. You don't have, you know, compensating controls in place. You don't have multiple egress points for your data, and you don't have failover, and you don't have backups that we need, and you don't have an SLA that matches, you know, three nines or two nines is not going to do it, maybe.

Yeah. Your operational maturity is hurting me emotionally. You know, they told me when I, when I was consulting, I was like, Hey, the skill is telling them their baby's ugly. and have them still like you. I'm not sure if I'm still, I'm good at that even now, but I think you understand it better than I do. It's one of those pieces that's rough. Here it is. So yeah.

You know, it's funny, like there were times when Joe said, you know, Adam, we need a knack to do this. I'm like, wow, Joe. I mean, that's going to require some work or we need micro segmentation to maybe, and I'm joking, this is not a real story. This is a real story, but be careful. We still have Windows 95 machines and we have to only allow source to destination for, you know.

Yeah, the story is actually we still have Windows, we still have server 2003 R2 machines. Yeah, I know. Holy crap. Yeah, the real story is, I remember, I remember that error. There's a weird error where 2003 R2 wouldn't leave. And it was like, okay, we have to make them leave or else we're out.

Of course, companies have proprietary software written on those machines.

It's always going to happen. Well, you know, it is interesting. And that's something about security that's really important is that, you know, we talk about all the tools and all the cool stuff and everything. And yes, we like to buy these new things. We like to look at them and get them and all that. But a lot of the, you know, really most of the real work in security and really most of the Most of the challenge is not in buying this stuff and getting this stuff or even in setting it up It's maintaining it it's and it's operating it and and the you know The sock in particular is the thing where there's got to be someone looking at it all the time Responding to the stuff that comes in tuning the system knowing what they're looking at that.

That's what's so challenging And I'll tell you what, you know, you made that point before to remind me It's one of the things I used to you know, I for a very short time as a sales engineer. And I used to tell people like, Hey, I don't know if you can operate this. And don't get me wrong. That doesn't make you popular with the people you're selling.

But I can see why you were not a sales engineer for very long.

That's one of those things where I would challenge you is like, you sure you can operate this? Like you sure you got the guys in more over? Are you sure they're not going to come consult for this bar I work for later for this exact thing more than you're paying. I can't wait to open it. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, are you sure they're not going to consult for me? Because like we're hiring people for this exact skill set right now, because it's really hard to find this exact skill set right now. So when they leave you, how are you going to operate this? Like you're going to have to hire consultants to operate this piece, like at a ridiculous price compared to what you're paying right now. So maybe you should get the more operable piece of software that maybe you can more easily replace the people who are going to leave you. And that's one of those things, it's not a popular thing to say, but it's an important thing to think about when you're actually choosing tooling.

So this bar's going to be really big. This bar's going to be big. Not only is there going to be a sock in there, and maybe a nock, a sock, a nock, and then maybe we're going to have also the video studio, or the podcast, we're going to have meeting rooms where we bring clients in there and bring in beers and alcohol and Yes. And bar nuts and everything. And we can talk about some of these things that we're going to sell the clients.

Yeah.

I mean, whoa.

All of a sudden, we need a name. All I know it has to end in like tech or something, or sound something very technical. And then we have a bar. We're ready to go. We're almost there. We should put an X in it, too. We've got to get an X in there. There has to be an expensive Scrabble letter in it. There has to be an S, a P, and a C. Like whatever is as high as Q, something really expensive and scrappy.

Wait, what's that email address though? What's that email address again? Is it feedback at securitycocktailhour.com?

Yes, that's our email address, feedback at securitycocktailhour.com.

For the 14 people that are listening to us, email us at feedback at securitycocktailhour.com what the name of the bar should be and what alcohol we should carry in the bar when we open it. We will carry everything, I guess.

But you need like an absinthe still.

Oh my god.

Oh jeez. So bad. That is the only guest liquor request I have turned down, is that I'm not drinking absinthe.

I remember you guys told me that. And I remember I told you guys a story I'm a whole back on about absinthe and an old Defcon. That said, it's one of those things, it's a very classic drink of the computer hacker, even though, who the hell drinks that stuff? It's terrible.

Just watch Clockwork Orange.

It's got a lot of baggage, you know, I feel like that's where it really came from really, even though it's milk, but it's that whole sort of, you know, thing where it's a ritual, you know, they did it in that other movie.

It was vacation where I am not Chevy Chase's vacation. The other one. European vacation it was? Oh, it was Eurotrip, right? Eurotrip, Eurotrip. Oh, really? And then it was like the fairy flying when they were doing it.

That's right. And it may have been Kylie Minogue as the fairy or something like that. But no, that was actually in, maybe that was in, uh, something similar to that. But I vaguely remember what you're talking about. If I had a memory, my middle aged memory was better. I vaguely remember that. My old age memory, my old age, middle guy, a memory. But all right, now it's late enough to show where I can start picking on Adam. Beard. Feel free at any time. Beard, if you, bald, yes. But then you have to go beard as a brand, right? It makes you look like a smart professor or something like that. So you want me to look like Chris Roberts? Yeah, kind of. Yeah, you would actually kind of look like, oh, God, you would like, but yes, exactly. And then it's like, oh. And then perhaps big glasses. Not regular, look at that. Like big, like Harry Carey, like the Uncle Junior glasses. Because you're the funny guy, right? Joe's the straight guy, you're the funny guy. So you have to have a gimmick, you know? Big glasses, full beard.

Just an idea. Just an idea. I told you, you look like Logic from Homicide, Eminem, when they had that thing. Nobody told you that?

You did tell me that.

Yeah, but but I what I can do is I'm sure Chris is gonna end up seeing this.

I'm not wearing a kilt My beard of blue and just regular regular colored beard Big, you know, like I said when you're bald, you don't have as much brand. I know it sounds funny. I So you need either a beard or weird glasses on your pole. I don't know why. You just do.

But we need an image consultant. That's what we need.

So any image consultants, email us at feedback at securitycocktailhoward.com. And any image consultants willing to work with us, please contact us.

There's the funny guy and the straight guy, the Evan Costello. You're the funny guy. You've got to have the gimmick. He already has all the good stuff in the background where he looks like he's a serious guy. He's already doing his bit. Your current macho.

They didn't have to clean off those shelves of all the junk when we went to video. I had to clean this room when Adam said, we've got to do video. I'm like, oh.

You guys have no idea what's happening on this side of my office. You have no idea. I turned my desk so that you guys would have no idea.

Jeez, you have no idea. So Monty, what I want to do is, you're talking about comedy. I'm thinking in January of doing an open mic at a comedy place.

I'm telling you, man, you could get your little five, you know, your type, you have a Brooklyn accent, which is plus five to comedy. Everyone knows that, you know, open mic night at our, at our bar. Exactly. Well, you absolutely would do it over my client, your bar. Yeah. You'd stream that too. And people would watch it and stream it. Like, you know what I mean? Like you keep end to ending it. And then you can like, there's a lot of ways we're going to find a bar with a hundred thousand square feet. Staten Island. That's the only place you can be in Staten Island.

It's got to be in Manhattan, though, because that's where all the security people are, at least around here. Who's in Staten Island?

You know, here in Denver, we have nothing but open spaces and a large hub airport with a train into the city. Whoa. Something to think about. Denver, Colorado.

Really, Denver.

I've never been to Denver. Don't you, like, choke out there the first week you're there?

You do. Yeah, you do. And then all of a sudden, your cardio is good when you go to, like, the coast again. You're like, man, I could just jog up a hill.

We put in also a fitness center and boxing ring in the gym, too I mean, I know you're but you're you're you're a boxer Adam so, you know Adam we got to start off with a little bar and a little studio on the side Yeah, you like it.

You like ready to open up a mall at this point.

We're gonna have like, you know a hairdresser in there Like I think that's one of the things when we reopen commercial space right this commercial space is inexpensive right now and We're going to find multi-purposes for it to monetize per square foot better.

We're going to have to open a bar the size of the American Dream Mall in New Jersey.

There might be a lot of space free in there soon from what I hear.

Yeah, probably. You've been to the mall last year? I haven't been to the mall at all.

I heard stories about converting malls into condominiums now. The stores have become condominiums.

Yeah. I mean, what are you gonna do with all that space, man? Like, you know, like, hey, we know where we all order everything from. It's the same, and it's the boss of all of us, man. You know, they're out there in Seattle, and we order our stuff from them. And now malls are dead. It's just what happened. I don't know. The freaking water's gone, he's saying?

I don't know if it's completely gone, but man. Toys R Us is reopening up again. Toys R Us is opening up.

Is it? Look at my hat. Well, see, this is my, again, born in 1980 nostalgia moment. Like, what? Jeffrey Giraffe's back. Of course, I'm going to go to that. I'm going to spend a bunch of money on it. Buy my kid a million things there. Yeah, of course. That's it.

I always wanted to be one of those characters that walked around one of those stores.

You wanted to wear that suit and do that. With the big giraffe head.

I got reprimanded. I did it for a college. And it was family day. And I was wearing it. It was 90-something degrees during the summer. And I took my head off. And I got pulled aside. He goes, you can't do that. You're scaring the kids.

Well, Adam, I'll tell you what, if we open a bar, we can get a giant like martini suit or something, and you can stand outside and pull people in with that.

So we're also going to have another area of the bar. That's going to sell our security cocktail, our shirts and a swag.

I mean, here's, that's the other thing I was thinking like a hat, right? But you'd have a security cocktail fitted hat, and then you would also sell the security cocktail hat on the site. He's like, you know, a hat also.

So we do have shirts. I wore it. We did a three round boxing with my friend Sal, which is also the owner of my gym. And I never realized, number one, how bad I box. Number two, how fat I look. And number three, how I got my ass kicked. It's tough.

It's tough to be on camera, man.

I give you credit. When you see this, you will be mightily impressed that he got in there.

Well, how long have you been boxing? A little over 10 years, I've been doing martial arts, probably last 40 on and off in my life. I kick box, I box, I wrestle a little bit, but Sal, which is a great friend of mine, he's 24, maybe in the late 20s, maybe, I don't know. And he got in there and he was like showing skills and I'm like, I'm sitting there pouring. Yeah, you know, he looked pretty, I looked ugly. That's okay. You did.

It's okay to look ugly as long as as long as you got to fill you up.

I said, nobody really good at boxing or not.

You know, don't don't worry about it. Yeah, I'm I'm very mediocre in every martial art but you know, I love it. You know, I I spend time down in Brazilian top team in Orange County when I live in Southern California and I always tell people the same thing. You don't gotta be good. Just get in there, man. Get in there. You you wanna have some fun. You know, you wanna it's a sport and it's a good time to

Well, the point I'm making is when I usually train with them and we spar, I use a lot of my weight and my power. The day I was trying to use skill and I realized, oh **** I don't have any skill. Oh my god.

Well, it's one of those things too. I tell people like, hey, you just gotta be better than the other guy and sometimes that guy's never boxed his life. You're much better than someone's never boxed one day in their life. You'll see. I love that scenario.

Like like somebody says like uh You know, they're talking about the tiger chasing him. I don't have to be faster than a tiger. I just have to be faster than you.

That's right. That applies to security too, you know? You don't want to be that easy target, that target of opportunity. Just be a good enough deterrent.

That's right.

My locks don't have to be incredible. They just have to be enough that you go to your other house. Exactly.

Let them check somebody else's car door. Mine's not going to be unlocked, right? Hey, we're going to keep checking for open car doors and you know. There's those scenarios where, hey, here's an open proxy. Hey, here's a... It's not gonna be on my network. It's gonna be on somebody else, right? It's gonna be those other moments where you were the one who ran slower than the bear. And it wasn't me who got it.

That's exactly right. Every once in a while, I like to upset Joe. We'll be in a meeting, and Joe will be like, Joe will be like, blah, blah, blah, blah. I go, Joe. You realize I always operate under the fact that somebody's on our network. I go, stop that, Adam, stop it. I go, yeah, Joe, everybody has a threat actor on it, we just haven't found him yet. Stop that, stop that. I might say he didn't agree necessarily, but no one wants to hear that.

No, I do agree, but when I'm in charge of the security of this place, I don't need you reminding me of it constantly. I'm like, I got enough odds, you know. I know. Yeah, exactly. I know. I said, he goes, you know, Joe, there's someone on the network. We just haven't found it. I'm like, Adam, can I just eat lunch for Christ's sake?

I would literally do that. I would like you to be eating lunch. I go, Joe, can I talk to you a second? He goes, what's wrong? I go, you ever think about the fact that some men might be in our network? He goes, Adam, get out. Thank you.

Turn around. Out you go. You stay up at night? Of course I stay up at night. Of course. And I live the same way, man. That's what I believe. Like, hey, no, they're just hanging out there. They're waiting for their time. There's an APT just sitting there, sleeping, hanging out, taking naps in our network. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. But if you live that way, you're always looking for them. And I think that's part of it.

I'm APT 106. I'm cozy unicorn.

There you go. You're cozy unicorn. 106. See, I would think of you as a fancy unicorn. Look at APT 192.

There you go. Oh, wow. That is shocking for the first round. Boy. Did you say earlier?

I don't know. Someone asked me if like, you know, Hey, do you think people from other countries in cybersecurity call our APTs eagles? I was like, absolutely. Like we call them Ferris Pandas. I was like, we're of course eagles. Of course. Yes. Yeah.

Although they might have something less flattering.

I know Yeah, I heard a Swiss guy a Swiss threat hunter actually refer to an American APT as an eagle once I've only heard it once and I was like, I know what you're talking about immediately and good for you So, let me ask you this Monty.

You've done red team. You've done blue team Yeah with purple team, right? So sure. Yeah, you're wrong for the blue team to become the red team No, no

But, okay, it just never really happened, because here's the thing. Here's the thing, there's so many red team spots, there's so many blue team spots, and we know, there's a lot more blue team spots than red team spots. And I think we can agree on that.

And so everyone knows that the red team is the attacker, the blue team are the defenders. That's the way it works.

I was doing a purple jersey. And I was on the blue team, and I got reprimanded for being on the blue team. Because the red team started earlier than it was supposed to. And, you know, I was surprised these guys are freaking top notch, but I use a service account as one of the tools. And I went on one of the threat actors computers and I took the hashes and I kind of swapped them.

You just kind of ruined the whole exercise by coming across the line and be like, I got it. I'm like, yeah. All right, well, you know, hey, listen, I would brag about it, too. I wouldn't stop either, and good for you on that flex. Way to ruin the exercise. I'm ready to reprimand you now.

Well, that's it. That's what you got reprimanded for, because I'm like, Adam, by the way, these guys were preparing the exercise that I paid them a lot to do. You know, don't ruin it before we get started. There's a point of just realizing.

And then they had him just stuff the ball down their throat. how you like me now, like you're all the way.

Then they didn't realize, then they didn't realize, they didn't realize, you know, which one actually did it. And they went after somebody else in the organization and they thought it was me. And I started, I really started antagonizing them. The first meeting we had, I don't want to say what unit or what they used to be doing, but I made shirts. But I made shirts, I antagonized them. And then the next year they came on with their own shirts that were talking shit about us. So I used to antagonize them. Then the funniest part was they were in their New York office. They're from outside the country. And I got somebody into the refrigerator and behind two locked doors, two card access doors, and put a note in the refrigerator. And they're like, we're ready to start. I go, wait, wait. I have a note for you." They go, where's the note? I go, it's in your refrigerator. They go, no way there's a note in our refrigerator. They go, no way there's a note in our refrigerator. So they go in the refrigerator and goes, all right, Adam, you're scaring me. How did you get the note in the refrigerator? I go, can't talk about it. And we spoke about the tool. We spoke about the tool, but I also use a tool on one of the exercises. to take screenshots of everything they were doing. And they didn't even realize that this was doing it, because it was acting on behalf of a service account that was normal to them. And I was like, why are you doing this? He goes, Adam, how do you know what we're doing? I go, you should know that.

Yeah, but we've talked about this before. You were also cheating, because you were using legitimate access.

That's part of it. That's part of it. Kobayashi Maru. Kobayashi Maru scenario. Just like just like one of my excuse my language scumbag colleagues who was antagonizing me using tools in during COVID to kick me off conferences. And he goes, haha, you can't get me. I logged into the EDR. I stopped every single one of their services when they were home. Their machine crashed took them 45 minutes to bring it back up.

I can't tell you when, when Adam works for you, how many beers you owe people for stuff you've got to like, you know, talk about.

Hey, listen, man. That's again, that's why you're the flavor guy. I don't mind. Like, you know, you're a natural troll and that's important here in the cybersecurity universe. You know? Uh, you know, that's how you get respect. Every so often you have to pull your troll out, start locking down people's end points and just, you know, Hey, who knows what's happening? I don't know. Just tell them, dude, are you not me? I don't know what you're talking about. Like, you know, It's part of what makes it fun, right? It's leveraging. I'll tell you this old story. If you guys remember, back in the day, there used to be LAN parties. Do you guys remember LAN parties, where you would bring over your actual tower computer to your friend's house and then play some sort of game, like say Warcraft 2, for example. Yeah, yeah. That's a little after our time, but anyway. No, it's between into StarCraft, et cetera, in the late to mid to late 90s. You would come over and you'd play games together. One of the ways a friend of mine trolled another friend of mine was when he got up to go to the bathroom between games as he copied his Windows directory within his Windows directory over and over and over again and rebooted his machine. And you can imagine what that's going to do to like a Windows 98 box. It's not good.

So in 2000, 2001, 2002, when I used to work for another organization, We're waiting for the story.

Come on, spit it out.

Oh, sorry. In 2001, 2002, 2003, what I used to do is I used to open up the cabinets on the HP machines and disconnect the cables and put it back. Oh, that's evil.

That is a mean, that's a mean. That's vandalism. Yeah. That's hard. It's just like unplugged like the pro curve switches. Just re-plug. What's wrong with you? What are you, a terrorist? Are you a terrorist?

What's wrong with you? And then you find out something like someone's got the ports locked down to like max and stuff. And you go, oh, I didn't mean to do that. Because just for those who don't know, that would totally break everything.

You wouldn't expect. I was meaning to just be a hilarious troll. And now we're screwed. We're here all night, aren't we? Like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's how you make friends in IT, doing stuff like that. Yeah, I remember the data center days, where it's like, oh no, did I just, that was the wrong thing, oh no, did I just, oh no, we're gonna be here a while. I unplugged the wrong thing, guys, I'm sorry. And then, yeah, next thing you know. Oh, I did that too. You live in a data center for the next, you know, 11 hours or so.

I was doing the exercise once, with the Purple Team exercise, and I saw one of the threat actors coming from an IP, and I didn't realize what they were doing. And I ended up shutting down the COO's personal access point outside his office.

It'd be like that sometimes. That happens. You crush availability for the C-suite, no biggie. You learn from your... Well, here's the thing.

So that's the technical side of it, the management side of it, as I just say. Okay, well I happen to know he's been complaining for months that his access point is weak, so we'll just let it go. We'll see if no one's, might just fix it. Maybe he'll just chalk it up to something else.

Just let it happen, that's right. So how did you guys decide, because I've been a short time from the security cocktail hour. How did you guys decide we're gonna do the security cocktail? That's the question I have that I was gonna ask. How did you guys decide this was all going to happen?

Well, I'll take that one. I will say this was, since you asked, this was originally my idea to do a, well, I'll give you the whole genesis of it. I started watching like, you know, the stuff on YouTube and they're like, how to make faceless videos easy with AI and all. And so I tried some of them with little security tips and God, they were awful. It was miserable. And then I said, okay, let me try my own voice and voiceover. And I did that. And it was slightly less terrible. I said, wait a minute, why don't I do a podcast? And I'm like, okay, I'll do a podcast, but I didn't want to do it myself. And also I said, I need someone else, but I need someone else who is not a clone of me. I don't like you were saying, I need a, I need a foil. I need someone else. I said, who's the best, most entertaining talker I know. He wasn't available, but then I. That's the bit. Just kidding. Just kidding. No, I said, Adam would be great for this. And then from there, we kind of came up with the whole concept.

It's evolved if you listen to some of the early shows, too. I noticed that. It's grown a little bit. And like I said, you guys are doing new stuff on this round. But I found it interesting, top to bottom, because you find people like, oh, maybe we're going to do this podcast. Maybe they don't. What makes you actually take the plunge for that moment? And, you know, you got great guests on the show. Like, you know, when you guys reached out to me, I felt great because of your guest roster, what a treat that I can be, you know, like I said, listed along those names. And it's one of those things where it's like, hey, how do you do this? Let me look behind the curtain with you guys, because in truth, you know, I find it interesting as well, because, you know, I think for me, a big part of cybersecurity is the culture. You know, it is, you know, a lot of things we lost during pandemic, et cetera, where we didn't get to see each other, we didn't get to hang out, we didn't get to grab a beer like we used to all the time. And as a longtime conference guy, a guy who was going to conferences when he was a teenager, way before I was a professional, it was one of those things I felt like I missed because it's actually where I felt like my skillset grew the most. Because when you kind of talk that big picture amongst colleagues, you kind of understand. You talk big picture among people who are more senior to you, et cetera, and you kind of like, iron sharpens iron with them. It makes all the difference in your career. And I always, I always kind of like, you know, I've talked to multiple colleges, you know, and I always suggest like, hey, come out to a conference, come talk to people, come have a beer with some of the guys that you just, you know, you just heard talk on stage. We might be at the bar right next door, wherever it is at that conference. Come talk to them because they would love to share with you. And I feel like it's one of those places that was missed. And this is kind of the thing where it's like, oh, we needed this sort of podcast, you know, to kind of bring that back together.

Yeah, well, that's kind of the vibe we were trying to get, you know, we can talk about security all day and realize we have our best conversations about security at the bar. And I also have to say that, you know, my thing, I would do it like this all the time, just be drinking and talking, but all the innovative stuff we've done, like video and doing the boxing and the, you know, unboxing videos, those are all Adam's ideas. Adam, like, you know, says that we gotta do something else. Let's do some stuff. And I hate to admit it, but they're the videos that do the best.

That's exactly right. I mean, you have to be novel. Like, you know, novelty is always a thing that's going to bring people in into your core product, right? Like everything else that kind of brings you into this juicy center. But moreover, it's, you know, those little charismatic moments, right? I think of it as very charismatic videos. You know, you see this guy out there boxing, going out there. Of course, I'm gonna watch that video. Let's go. Let's see what Adam does out there with a frickin' 28-year-old actual professional. This guy's just gonna smoke monster you. You couldn't even touch him if you wanted to, and you're an actual athletic young person like that. I've been in those situations, like, can I touch this kid at all? Nah, I sure can't. And you know, those are the fun ones to watch, and they're very authentic, you know what I mean? They're those things that people really latch onto, because it's you being real, it's you living life, and you being yourself. And you know, that's one of those things, you know, When I met you, I was like, I'm a kick with that guy and some days. All right, dude, you know, like, he's 1 of those cats and yeah, it's your authenticity that really brings it out, you know, brings that flavor up. But, you know, I think you guys made the right choice. I think you got, you are the Abbott Costello, perfect little crew and now you're just ironing out the little details that make it a real special podcast. You know. And yeah, that's what catches people. That's all I'll say. I think you guys get it.

Oh, thanks. You know, I feel like I think I'm going to call this the Howard Stern episode or something. It's like this is turning into a show where the show is about the show. It's the most meta, the most meta. Right. This is meta. This is something new for us.

Yes. Yeah. There you go. Monty Fabiani goes meta. Monty, you want to be our producer?

Assistant producer at best. We can do the Jerry Seinfeld thing, too, where we can do an episode totally about nothing. What's it about? What's the show about?

It's the big picture of the show, right? The big picture of the show is about nothing. What is it about? It's just a guy living his life, you know?

Well, you know, that's very, uh... What is that, like, Buddhist or something? Ultimately, the show is not a show at all. It's just not about anything.

It's just what it is. I don't know. It's relatable because of that. You know, so those are the things that makes it makes those little differences. But like I said, this is one of those things where I'm going to take, I'm going to take credit for how this gets more views like than every other previous show. But actually it was already happening. You can see that you're picking up those views and those sort of things. So it's one of those things where I'm going to absolutely be like, and then you can see right here where security cocktail hour really blew up. This guy really, and don't get me wrong, I'm putting it on the email list. I'm a part of, I'm putting it out, make my family there. Half of them are South Americans, so they're definitely going to be in on this, because they have to. It's great. They have to? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll ask them if they've watched it and guilt them, et cetera. Give them written tests. Exactly. I'll send them out, and then that's what decides what's happening with Christmas for you specifically. But yeah, it's one of those things where I think you guys are doing good work. It's great conceptually. And you know, you guys have the right personalities for the position, so you got the right people on the bus. But you know, I'm one of those guys who like to analyze things, because analysis is my passion.

I see. Well, thanks. And you know what? If you get our traffic driven higher and this becomes our biggest episode, I have absolutely no problem giving you credit for it. And have you back on again, whenever you like.

Thank you. For the DeMonte Fabia number two episode, our first return.

That's right. We have not had a return guest yet. Wait, wait, wait.

That distinction is waiting. Has it worked, the Sith? The Sith returns? How does that work? Return of the Sith.

Now, look, here I am in all black. There's a Force choke going. It's actually a... I'm your father. You could... No, I don't think... I don't think you're... But you could be. You could be. I could be. So one time... Because I know we're towards the top of the hour here. I was working as a DEF CON goon. And it was one of those things where the crowd needed to go this way. And I was using the force to make them go this way. And all the way, everyone was obeyed. Because I was like.

Are you sure there wasn't like a bigger guy behind you telling them where to go?

No, it was definitely me. And I was just like. And then this kid came out of nowhere. And I was like. It was the best moment of DEF CON history where this little DEF CON kid came and force choked me and I had to play along. I was like, oh no, ah, ah, I've been set out by this kid. And yeah, sweetheart, cute kid, took picture with him. But it's one of those things where everyone there knows when the force is enacted and responds accordingly. You're like, that's right. The force is driving you this way, guys. The force is driving you this way. Understood. You took a picture with him? No, yeah, I did. I wish I knew the kids. I wish I hadn't seen the picture, but I was like, this parent was there with, you know, when DEFCON kids first started coming, they were adorable. And I had my goon shirt on, the red shirt on.

So my, my, my most celebrity moment taking a picture was, um, I was working the corner for, um, for a boxing match, kickboxing. And people came up to me and they said, can I take a picture with you? I go, I didn't fight. I go, no, I know you work the corner. You look like a really tough guy. Can we take pictures with you? As a corner guy, they took the picture.

Plus the great accent, the great accent. It's like, come on, you're my bomb rocket. It's like, you're the guy.

You gotta see Adam when we go to something. He wears a sport jacket and a little flag pant. He looks like a detective, totally.

I was like, or like, like maybe like a mobster who's going to collect money from you. Hey, man, you owe some money here. You're like, I'm sorry. It's my money.

I went back to the fighter. I go, these guys just stopped me when I went to the bathroom to take pictures with them on the backdrop. He goes, not one person has to take a picture with me. I go, what can I tell you?

This guy just put himself on the line. He's bleeding out of one eye. He's like, no one cares. He's like, no, no, no. I was out there. I was yelling at you. They're like, this guy's a tough corner, dude. Gotta take a picture.

Well, that's how nothing to you know, we're like, you know security EMT locksmith and corner man You've done everything Renaissance and everything.

That's right. You already in tip forgot about that. Oh boy It's one of those things you need one around whenever there's a fight going on. I don't say that An amateur fight or a smoker or something like that. Like one of these corner guys is EMT watch. Oh There he is.

You know, it's funny. I did a pay-per-view for a New Jersey fight, and I was working the corner, and then I played back what the announcers were doing. He goes, what is this guy doing? He's not even putting ice. And I'm like, wow. On regular TV, this guy's second guessing me what I'm doing. Wow. So it's hilarious. These television guys are... Yeah.

Actually, Adam, come to think of it, when you did that boxing match with Sal, I think you were the only EMT in the facility, and possibly the one most likely to need an EMT.

Well, I guess that's true. I guess the good news is that in my jam days, I'm told the surgical assistants, nurses, there is actually an EMT, but there weren't that many. Oh, there is?

All right. That's good to know.

there's some medical workers and it's actually some people that also get therapy. I could probably use that too. That's right.

But yeah, like I said, there, there has to be at least one of you guys that every freaking smell, every amateur fight, every semi pro fight, it has to be, there has to be one of you guys there. Like I'll say, you know, sometimes like you'll, you'll have a smoker, you have an amateur fight and they don't really have a license. They don't really have, so you, the Hayes are, Anyone who has medical, okay, cool. Like before you do that, I'll be like.

I've worked fights as an EMT. I have also worked for some of those electronic music festivals. And the first thing some of these people say to you, the doctors, I don't know, I wanna be very careful what I say here is, just realize if you leave the venue, we have to stop everything till you return. Yeah.

So you're the only emergency guy. Yeah. You're the, you're the responder.

Yeah. Does that include like the men's room or like, you know, it's not cool. Stop the show.

I got to take a look in the middle of a, of a fight, not a fight, but like, you know, you said a concert or something. No. And so if there is not enough resources as required to operate the event, right. First of all, when we work in these big concerts, like these big electronic music festivals, they're usually in open areas. And there's medical tents all over the place. So there's always somebody backing me up. But if we had to transport a ridiculous amount of people, because let's say something happened where a lot of people got sick, let's say something stupid. Somebody had fentanyl. And a lot of people took fentanyl for some strange reason, which has never happened. And the resources are depleted. That becomes an MCI or a multiple casualty incident. And everything stops.

Well, yeah, that's an emergency.

But the definition of an incident or MCI, a multiple casualty incident, If there's only one resource and there's three resources I needed, that's an MCI. So when the amount of resources don't match the incident, then everything shuts down until you get money.

Okay, but who declares that then?

The doctor or the person who's considered the, what do they call it, the medical control. That's how it works in New York City. New York City. Yeah, go ahead.

Wait, so if you're the EMT and something happens, whatever, and say, even if it's like, I don't know, two people trip or bump into each other or whatever, and you got to treat these two people and you're like, I got my hands full, do you say you got to stop the show? I can't take anymore?

I don't know how it works with this show, but I'll tell you this. As an EMT who worked in a 911 system, I was transporting somebody quite a serious injury, a life-threatening injury. And as I was transporting with lights and sirens, I was flagged down by police. And the police said, you got to stop. I go, I have a life-threatening injury. They go, somebody has a life-threatening injury and needs support now. So I'm like, I radio back in to telemetry or to the, they said, listen, I'm being flagged down. I'm giving a lawful order to stop. Go take a look really quick, do not stay and tell them another resource is on the way. So what I'm getting at is if two people are dying and you have to do triage, you have to triage the higher level. But if you're already providing care to somebody and you stop providing care, that's called negligence or malfeasance. So the point, it gets to be very difficult. So can you imagine you're transporting somebody who might be dying and police stop you and say, let's say it's an officer and they want you to treat the officer and you don't do it. That becomes a very serious issue. It's almost like when you watch, what's it called? The movie with the submarine. What's the name of that? Where you were both right. and you were both wrong. What's the name of that movie again?

Oh, was that with the Dead Zone Washington?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my point I'm making is you're given a lawful order. You're supposed to follow lawful orders, but your duties as an EMT or a medical professional supersede lawful orders. It gets to be very, like, I've been in places where I park my ambulance to to handle a patient, and the cop's like, you gotta move it. I'm like, no, I don't. And that's when sometimes people get arrested, because they don't follow the lawful order. But then that cop has to assume responsibility for the patient. There's crazy things like that. So you got to figure out what's right and what's wrong. You should always escalate or ever late your issue to your superior.

Yeah. I mean, I can see that as being really tough because like, you know, I haven't known a lot of, a lot of doctors and grown up around that stuff. You know, you say lawful order. I mean, you know, doctors will offer that. I don't know how it is with EMTs, but doctors will often say, Hey, You're talking about triage. I tell you who needs help and who gets it first. That's my decision, not yours.

I was once providing patient care and a doctor came up to me and says, I don't like the way you're doing that. I said, I'm following orders. I go, however, however, if you were assuming control over the patient or then you need to provide me with your license so I can document. I'm not giving you that. Get away.

Really?

Wow.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, you said it. I mean, it's probably wasn't the reason you went out of that type of work, but I think it's the toughest part, right? Like I'm still an EMT. I'll still do it. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. Not, not for a living. You're not.

No, I always did EMT as a side thing. I never did as a primary. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.

It was always, it's always just do the right thing. That's what happened.

And I like working in the 911 system. I feel, I feel bad for my friends who are EMTs and paramedics who have a hard way if they don't make the living that they should be making. And they work two, three jobs in order to provide for their families. They love what they do. They enjoy what they do, most of them. And it's, you know, nobody ever, it's kind of like what we do for a living as cybersecurity. No one ever says, oh my God, we have an incident. I'm glad you're here. They're like, man, shit went to, I mean, someone shit in the bed.

Worst day of their lives, yeah. Worst day of their lives.

No one's, oh my God, I'm so happy to see you because you're gonna save my, and then sometimes you have to give people the news. You know, unfortunately someone has passed. Right. And I had one difficult situation where I told somebody, that their brother passed. And he was literally arguing with me for like 10 minutes. You got to do something. I'm like, sir, I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do. And I did something I'm not happy with. I said something which I'm not going to say, and it made me upset. But the guy was in such shock. And the guy snapped out of it and started crying. He wasn't mad at me. But I brought him to reality. And it was one of the most difficult times, I think, because not only that, after he started crying, there were two dogs in the house, and I went and fed the dogs. And as the detectives walk in, because they thought it might've been a homicide, they said, what are you doing? I go, the dogs gotta eat too. And I'm allergic to dogs, but there were another living creature that needed to be fed. They weren't fed in three days. I think three days. I think three days. I don't know for a hundred percent.

That's probably what they were guessing at that point. Yeah.

So I'm feeding the dogs and the detectives walk in and people walk in, what are you doing? I guess it's a way of contaminating the crime scene. And I'm sorry I did that. But at the same time, I felt a responsibility as a human being to take care of another living creature.

Oh yeah. They're hungry. Yeah. And you know, uh, you know, I'll tell you something until I do out of Israel, the first person I've known well, who's at EMT. It is, it is, uh, I was surprised and frankly appalled that, uh, it, it's not only a tough job, they don't make a lot of money at all, especially in the city. They're really, really under, underpaid. Uh, they, they, you know, struggling to, they should not have to struggle to make ends meet. That's really tough.

Yeah. Well, having an extremely stressful and, you know, demanding job, uh, where, you know, It's not just demanding. It's demanding of you because you're a part of that. You're a human trying to help humans out. So it doesn't matter if you're tired. It doesn't matter if you're on your third shift. It doesn't matter. You still have to respond. You still have to help people out. You still have to make it good. So it's, you know, it's real life, man. It's real life.

And I don't want to take away from all my friends who are professional EMTs. And when I say professional, it's what they do for a living. So I never had to really deal with that level of hardship of earning a living. I've had my problems. When I first started becoming an EMT, I did another job too. And I did that actually to live. But my friends who do it as an everyday job, I applaud them, you know, I love them, and I think they're some of the best people in the world, especially working in the New York City 911 system. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's a serious guess, right? Like, you know, and yeah, it's like I said, it's good that you're doing those things. I always say someone who could sacrifice their time, you know, you don't got to do those things. You don't have to sacrifice your time that way you can do. And you know, I see that, you know, that's a tip of the hat, my friend. It's a tip of the hat, but still.

Yeah, and I'm not doing it now. I'm still an EMT, but I, again, I feel very, I want to make it clear that this is not what I'm doing for a living. And I don't want to take away from all my friends who are doing it, because I was like, oh, Adam's not an EMT right now. I'm not doing it for a living. They are. And I try my best to.

You know, you don't want to be a studio gangster in this. You're not studio AMT.

I see what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I've seen my friends. I've seen that have had issues and I love them. Yeah.

So, like I said, it's it's a tip of the cap.

All right, so we somehow got to a really heavy note.

We did, but luckily we did it deep in there, man. We got there all together. That's right. And if you watch the podcast this far and listen this far, good on you, man. Good on you. Deep into the podcast. Even I can only sometimes get 45 minutes in. So if you've been listening to me for the last 70 minutes, thank you. Wow, that's a long time to listen to, as well as Joe and Adam. Easier to listen to them, but I'm not a radio guy.

well thanks everyone thanks everyone for listening oh the other thing too we're learning as we go along is you know we gotta remember to plug ourselves so hopefully for those who are still listening which hopefully is everyone please if you're on youtube like subscribe get the notifications uh... follow us on spotify or wherever else apparently that stuff is important and you know we are trying to grow the show and get the word out there, with the help of great promoters like Monty, of course, who's going to triple our audience here with this show. Triple it. Easily, easily.

Or I'll have money back.

Or I'll have money back. That's right.

Or you'll have money back. That's right. Or I'll have money back. Listen, I'm going to be well worth what you've paid me. Well worth what you've paid me.

Right. Monty, thanks a lot for coming on. This is last call, I guess.

That's right. Our last call. I like that. That's what you're going to call the final segment. We've got a last call, Monty. You got anything to plug? And then I plug something. That's right. It's like Howard Stern. You got any plugs?

That's it.

Hey, guys. Hey, if you want to add me, add me, Monty Fabiani, on LinkedIn. Or as well, you can email me at montll at gmail. If you want to know anything about cybersecurity, go ahead, reach out. All right, great.

Monty, thanks again for joining.

Adams, thanks for hanging out, guys. This is all a trick so I could hang out and have drinks with you guys, so thank you. Good kicking it. Appreciate y'all.

Thank you. Awesome. All right, thanks. Bye, everyone. Take care.